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rockprodigy
Feb 7, 2006, 1:34 AM
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It's hard to say...it depends on the intensity.
What's your weekly schedule look like?
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manacubus
Feb 7, 2006, 5:59 AM
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Schedule during HYP phase is roughly as follows...
Mon - Hangboarding HYP. 1.5 hour session.
Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense!
Wed - rest
Thu - Indoor climbing in the gym. Just doing routes, not much structure.
Fri - rest
Sat - Outdoors. Medium to high intensity, not bouldery routes however.
Sun - rest
I realise that not everything I'm doing directly relates to HYP but I'm meeting you halfway :D
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tommez
Feb 7, 2006, 9:58 AM
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In reply to: Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense!
What kind of training do you do? Run? Row? Doing weights?
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up_for_a_good_time
Feb 7, 2006, 4:54 PM
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So, you're a zoomie, eh? Think we beat you guys again this year. Train harder.
USNA over USAFA anyday.
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aimeerose
Feb 7, 2006, 7:45 PM
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There are some good principles in this program (specifically periodization), and some dangerous ones as well.
I think everyone should be cautioned about weighted training. While this can lead to quick muscle hypertrophy, tendons build strength much slower. Thus, you risk tendon injury when your muscles get stronger too quickly. Also, prolonged straight-arm hanging, especially weighted, can lead to stretching out the joint capsule and ligaments of your shoulder. This can lead to instability, and therefore shoulder injuries.
Finally, it is important to do rotator cuff exercises and exercises for the middle and lower trapezius as well as the serratus anterior in order to keep the shoulders healthy for climbing. Also, it is very important to stretch the pecs and biceps.
Just some thoughts.
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manacubus
Feb 8, 2006, 2:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense! What kind of training do you do? Run? Row? Doing weights?
The main reason I do this training is for overall conditioning, and strengthening opposition muscles that don't get trained effectively during climbing. This should help to prevent me getting injured (and I have stayed injury-free). Another focus of many of the exercises is on core strength, which is something that is often overlooked in climbing training, but is very important. Upper body exercises in the sessions might include:
- various kinds of push-up's
- various kinds of pull-up's
- various kinds of bridge holds (holding a stable position on elbows and toes)
- eccentric's (where you're being pulled down from a pull-up)
- one arm pull-up's and lock-off's
- single arm dumbbell presses
- single arm pull-downs
- bent over rows
- uneven weight bench presses
I have been doing blocks of this kind of training for about a year, and find it's effective. While you're doing this training, you are not climbing your best, because your body is being flogged to death, but when you stop and move on to the next phase, the benefits begin to show.
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shear
Feb 8, 2006, 12:50 PM
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In reply to: rockprodigy (and others)- how would you change your work out if your goals were more focused on bouldering? I know that your forte is hard bigwalls (which isn't to say that your bouldering skills are unimpressive), but say you were thinking "this season I want to send Black Lung or the Mandala or run laps on Copperhead (or maybe get the elusive v13 sit repeat)" what would you do differently? Obviously I'm asking because I don't see hard Zion FA's in my future, but would love to wrestle harder pebbles this coming fall. Thanks.
I just started my training phase to be ready for the spring season. it is as follows:
Monday:
-warm up, easy traversing and easy to moderate problems. stretching
-3 sets 4x4's (hard sets) 5 min rest between sets (no falling on last set at all)
-fingerboard - repeaters, 10 sec on 10 sec off...use all holds possible. 3 sets of 10 frenchies to finish off.
-cool down, stretching
Tuesday:
-rest/recovery: 4 easy lead routes, 5.9 and under. 10 easy TR routes, 5.10 and under
-stretch
Wednesday:
-chest, triceps, abs, cardio...lots of stretching
Thursday:
-warm up, stretching
-moderate 4x4s, 3 sets, still no falling on last set.
-fingerboard, same as monday.
-cool down
-shoulder work
Friday:
-rest
Saturday:
-go climbing for fun, either inside or out, whatever the weather allows.
Sunday:
-rest.
then as time progresses, 3 sets of 4x4s becomes 4 sets, and falling is allowed on the last set. the idea is to be completely zapped by the last set, so getting that right is hard. gradually increasing your difficulty each set is key without tiring too quickly.
eventually, i will incorporate campusing after a firm amount of time on the hangboard.
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2006, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: Schedule during HYP phase is roughly as follows... Mon - Hangboarding HYP. 1.5 hour session. Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense! Wed - rest Thu - Indoor climbing in the gym. Just doing routes, not much structure. Fri - rest Sat - Outdoors. Medium to high intensity, not bouldery routes however. Sun - rest I realise that not everything I'm doing directly relates to HYP but I'm meeting you halfway :D
That schedule looks fine to me...I don't think you would be over-training.
In reply to: I think everyone should be cautioned about weighted training. While this can lead to quick muscle hypertrophy, tendons build strength much slower. Thus, you risk tendon injury when your muscles get stronger too quickly.
It is true that muscle grows faster than tendons...I believe I adressed this in my article, and I consider it one of the benefits of my training because increases in intensity are controlled, as opposed to the standard method of random bouldering which is completely uncontrolled.
I don't remember if I mentioned this, but it is important that you DON'T HANG STRAIGHT-ARMED. You should always have a slight bend in your arms and shoulders.
Rotator Cuff exercises probably wouldn't hurt. I have been known to do them, when I remember.
In reply to: USNA over USAFA anyday.
Yeah the climbing in Maryland is soooo much better than CO.
Shear - what's the purpose of your fingerboard work on Mon and Thur? The way you have it scheduled, i.e. immediately after 4x4's, I don't think you are building any strength. Maybe some endurance.
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ben
Feb 8, 2006, 3:20 PM
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I don't want to shit on anyones parade but in my experience the best was to climb hard problems is to get on something hard and just work it for months. if you can stay motivated you will see huge improvements really quickly- this summer I jumped 5 grade in 4 months from the ocasional v6 to v11 simply by getting out and cranking on the hardest problems I could find (after warming up- that shit is imporatant). the way i see it if you have a good day training you just end up spent or maybe be able to campus or do weighted hangs a little longer. were as after I have a good day I am worked but usually have made progress on or have sent a hard problem which feels more rewarding and motivating. Praxis my friends is some key beta.
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shadowsandwich
Feb 8, 2006, 3:46 PM
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Rockprodigy-
I'm curious about the 5 sec intervals between each 10 sec rep. Is there any particular reason for this (as it strikes me) rather short amount of time? Have you simply refined this time after trial and error as the amount that yields best results for you?
The reason I ask is that I've tried your hangboard workout and I felt like perhaps a slightly longer pause between would feel less awkward.
Also, you mentioned that the key to improvement (hypertrophy phase) was the increase the weight a specific percentage each time. Say perhaps you increased the weight for your next session from +15 (completed) to +20 on a certain hold but were unable to finish the set for the +20.
-Would you a) continue at the +20 until you finished the set but just hold it as long as you could or b) attempt to adapt your weight mid-session?
-Also, would you still attempt to increase the weight for the following session or continue with the +20 until a successful set was completed?
Great Article!!!
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aimeerose
Feb 8, 2006, 4:25 PM
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Yeah, in the pics when you're on the hangboard, your arms are pretty straight.
I did skim the article, so I missed the reasoning behind why this program would strengthen your tendons better than any other. I'll reread it.
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aimeerose
Feb 8, 2006, 4:50 PM
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Okay, I looked at it a little closer. It seems that you say the reason you won't injure your tendons is because it's a regimented program, not random. But, this still doesn't address the fact that muscles hypertrophy much faster than tendons get strong. There's nothing we can really do about this except be hypervigilant to finger pain and hopefully stop climbing before popping a pulley or pulling a long finger tendon. However, I think everyone should be cautioned about weighted climbing/pullups. Although weighted hangboard training could have some benefit to the tendons, as long as you keep the elbows bent.
Also, this is a small detail, but "climber's elbow" is actually brachioradialis tendonitis, not medial epicondylitis (that's "golfer's elbow" and we sure don't want to share a condition with golfers! ;)) It is true that medial and lateral epi are very common among climbers as well though.
I am very impressed at how disciplined you are! That is amazing. As a PT and CSCS I know what I need to do to train, but it's so hard to do it!
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organic
Feb 8, 2006, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, in the pics when you're on the hangboard, your arms are pretty straight. I did skim the article, so I missed the reasoning behind why this program would strengthen your tendons better than any other. I'll reread it.
I don't understand this post. Do you mean actual tendons, or pulleys? Do you want your tendons strengthened to avoid tendonitis? Tendons are already super strong and increase in strength quickly. Ligament and pulley injuries I think are far more common than any hand tendon injuries.
This article talks about tendon repair but I think it can be somewhat related to normal tendons.
"The tendon is weakest days 5-21 due to minimal tensile strength. Strength increases rapidly when tendon is stressed. Controlled stress is applied proportional to increasing tensile strength. Stressed tendons heal faster, gain strength faster, and have less adhesions and better excursion. Tensile strength begins to gradually grow stronger at 3 weeks."
http://www.emedicine.com/orthoped/topic94.htm
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"Average tensile strength of tendons is between 45 and 125 MPa."
"The tensile strength of a healthy tendon is more than twice that of muscles."
http://faculty.washington.edu/jsanders/BIOEN440.6.pdf
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aimeerose
Feb 8, 2006, 5:18 PM
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Tendon strength may be more that twice that of muscles for untrained muscle, but not necessarily for hypertrophied muscle. Muscles get stronger much faster than tendons. The powerpoint to which you refer states that tendons increase in tensile strength quickly, but this is only after they are surgically repaired. It also assumed the tendons are completely healthy, which climbers' tendons rarely are. If there's any hint of tendonitis, the tendon is compromised.
And the powerpoint does only relate to repaired tendons, not normal ones. The healing cascade does not occur when there is no insult to the tendon. Normal tendon is a completely different beast than repaired tendon. There would be no reason for an unrepaired tendon to suddenly get weaker at 5-21 days.
Yes, pulley injuries are much more common that long tendon injuries, but I have seen quite a few long tendon injuries. They take a long time to rehab, so they are best to be avoided.
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organic
Feb 8, 2006, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: Hmm, if it was true that tendon strength was more than twice muscle, we would all be pulling muscles not straining tendons! That may be true for untrained muscle, but not for hypertrophied muscle. Muscles get stronger much faster than tendons. It also assumed the tendons are completely healthy, which climbers tendons rarely are. If there's any hint of tendonitis, the tendon is compromised. And the article you found does only relate to repaired tendons, not healty ones. The healing cascade does not occur when there is no insult to the tendon. Healthy tendon is a completely different beast than repaired tendon. There would be no reason for healthy tendon to suddenly get weaker at 5-21 days. Yes, pulley injuries are much more common that long tendon injuries, but I have seen quite a few long tendon injuries. They take a long time to rehab, so they are best to be avoided.
Read the article, you are arguing measurements and research with opinion and of course the whole weaker at 5-21 days doesn't matter but was included for context and clarity.
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aimeerose
Feb 8, 2006, 5:35 PM
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reread my post, I edited it for "clarity".
The article also refers to post-op situations. Tendons do not build strength nearly as fast in non-operative situations. This is not opinion, but supported by research as well.
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2006, 6:57 PM
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Aimee, Thanks for posting, I appreciate your input...you obviously have a lot of knowledge.
I have no scientific research to back this up, but my opinion is that a disciplined, metered approach to training is far less likely to cause injury than the haphazard approach most climbers employ. I believe the difference is in control. The haphazard approach has no controls, just the occasional wild dyno to that really positive two-finger pocket that usually ends in a loud "pop".
I have to laugh at your comments about discipline. In many other sports (swimming, running, cycling, bodybuilding, powerlifting, and on and on...) athletes follow disciplined, regimented training programs as a rule, not an exception. In fact, for most runners who compete occasionally, or train for a marathon, they are almost all on some sort of training program. They would never just go out and run randomly, so why should climbers be different? Is our sport not "physical"? Are we really more like golfers than runners? Most climbers train more like golfers than runners.
Sorry about the bad photos...that is my wife, and the photo was intended to show the weight system, not her technique. My bad.
Shadowsandwich - The rest interval between reps is meant to closely mimic weight lifting and simulate the work/rest ration you might experience while climbing. Your typical rest between reps of bench press, for example, is almost nothing. I would encourage you to experiment if you want. These days I only have 3 sec rest between reps. You certainly don't have time to doddle...that's why it's critical to have a good hangboard in a cool location so you don't have to chalk up between every rep.
To answer your questions about increasing weight...once I start a set with a chosen weight, I usually stick with it until the set is done, even if I can't complete each rep. Very rarely I might just terminate a set if I'm the weight is so much that I'm not even getting close. This more likely happens on the later sets in the workout, when fatigue is adding up. In those cases, I would probably try the same weight for the next workout, rather than increasing, though if I felt really good that day, I might increase anyway. It's tricky to figure out, but as you gain experience, it will be easier to make these decisions.
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2006, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: I don't want to s--- on anyones parade but in my experience the best was to climb hard problems is to get on something hard and just work it for months. if you can stay motivated you will see huge improvements really quickly- this summer I jumped 5 grade in 4 months from the ocasional v6 to v11 simply by getting out and cranking on the hardest problems I could find (after warming up- that s--- is imporatant). the way i see it if you have a good day training you just end up spent or maybe be able to campus or do weighted hangs a little longer. were as after I have a good day I am worked but usually have made progress on or have sent a hard problem which feels more rewarding and motivating. Praxis my friends is some key beta.
Wow, that's quite an improvement. It sounds like you were nowhere near your physiological peak at V6. You're probably right that it's possible to tick a really big number by camping out under one route or problem for months, or years on end (just go to Rifle on any summer weekend to witness this phenomenon). I'm not sure that means you have improved as a climber, though.
A person who sends 14a after 132 days working on one route has not achieved the same level of mastery as one who spends 5 days to send a 14a. And if "level of master" is really what we are seeking, I would be even more impressed by someone who could flash 13a consistently, and at different crags, with different climbing styles, than a climber who can tick a big number by working a route down to their level.
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aimeerose
Feb 8, 2006, 9:24 PM
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True, those sports are more disciplined, and I feel that it's because they are promoted more for the competitive aspect whereas rockclimbing is more recreational (such as golf, although I hate to compare us to golfers!) Thus, I think your program is good for competitive climbers and those trying to push their limits (and who's bodies can handle it). I think "recreational" rock climbers should focus more on injury prevention so they can keep climbing as long as possible.
After thinking about it, I do think hangboard training could promote tendon strengthening. It just needs to be done in a very controlled environment, which is what you promote. I wonder how bent the elbows need to be. That's something I'm trying to figure out presently. It is so important not to stretch out the shoulder capsule and ligaments!
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2006, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: I wonder how bent the elbows need to be. That's something I'm trying to figure out presently. It is so important not to stretch out the shoulder capsule and ligaments!
This is a good question...if you figure it out, please let us know.
I would suspect that it is best to vary the position so that you are not stressing your elbows and shoulders in exactly the same positions with every rep, set, workout, etc. This is why I discourage people from doing lots of pullups on a hanboard because it forces your hands into the same exact position, and therefore really pinpoints a recurring stress on your joints.
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manacubus
Feb 8, 2006, 11:15 PM
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Just my opinion, however I don't believe the elbows have to actually be bent, as such. I feel however that the muscles surrounding the elbow and the shoulder need to be engaged, so that you're not dead hanging. The result is arms that look pretty much straight, however you're not stressing your joints.
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ben
Feb 9, 2006, 3:55 PM
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for tim i would say that the best way to climb big walls is to live on a big wall and just send on that shit constantly, but I don't climb big walls yet so my advice is a moot point. However since in my post I was talking about strategies to boulder harder I don't know what big walls have to do with anything.
Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do. for example you suggest campus training- I suggest climbing so that you can use your feet in every instance through flexibility and technique- how often are there absolutely no possibilities for foot placement outside? you can even smear on a 45 or roof to take weight. with regards to being able to flash most routes instead of camping on one hard one.. for me sending v8 or v9 is pretty casual because it just isn't as hard or painful- take the example of getting on a v4 instead of a v6 and the level of pain has dropped into a comfortable area. When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my adversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.
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zozo
Feb 9, 2006, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do.
mmmm-kay :roll:
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tim
Feb 9, 2006, 5:02 PM
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In reply to: for tim i would say that the best way to climb big walls is to live on a big wall and just send on that s--- constantly, but I don't climb big walls yet so my advice is a moot point. However since in my post I was talking about strategies to boulder harder I don't know what big walls have to do with anything.
Mike (rockprodigy) has successfully applied his training strategies to freeing some pretty heinous bigwall routes, where falling off at certain points would likely lead to serious injury. My point was simply that becoming a better boulderer has a good deal of overlap with freeing long, hard routes, but they're not identical, and I don't see why the training should be.
Your advice about freeing big walls, as you say, is a moot point. Mike's done so, for several FFAs in Zion, so being more of a long-route person than a boulderer, I find more interest in his methodology. As your methodology is supported (at least in your case) by impressive results for bouldering gains, so also is his for freeing longer routes.
That is what freeing walls has to do with anything -- this article is by a guy who has pulled off some spectacular ascents of hard, poorly protected aid routes, where a degree of confidence in one's abilities (perhaps due to extensive and metered testing of said abilities during training) seems to have contributed to noteworthy successes. That's closer to what I, personally, am after in this sport. To each his own.
I am nervous about using a hangboard due to my medial epicondylitis, but I've been working on various antagonist movements, so I think I shall begin this regimen on my Rock Rings and the other crap hanging from the roof of my garage, and see what happens. If your training strategy is working for your goals, then by all means keep it up and send that shit!
In reply to: When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my aversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.
Oddly enough, and please understand that I don't even boulder V6, let alone V11, but oddly enough, I get about the same results from campusing that you do (eg. it doesn't apply well to my leads). That may just be a reflection of the type of routes I enjoy -- a regular climbing partner of mine has a project that spits me off where he rests due to superior finger strength. He is not very confident for his strength (relative to my overconfidence in spite of my weakness) so I wonder if the mental issue is playing a big role in holding him back, too. Nonetheless he is Teutonically systematic about training and redpointing, and he's starting to get me into that sort of mindset (the best training for climbing, is climbing).
It seems self-evident that, if you *could* be climbing and you choose to train instead, you are making a decision to become better at the movements you train, rather than the movements you wish to climb. Still, Wolfgang Gullich pushed the envelope partly due to his training (for monos) and partly due to his consistent climbing -- finding the right balance point is something that I don't think has been systematized yet. (?)
Something else that occurs to me is that, if it's raining, or shitty, or a near enough sport or bouldering area with problems/cruxes that mirror your projects can't be reached, a different problem is present than motivating to swim, or run, or hit the tackling dummy, or run formations as in other sports. If instead of training for a specific problem or route, you're interested in raising your overall onsight level on diverse routes/problems, does the same camping-out strategy work as well?
My original comment was a bit flip, and for that I apologize, but my experience (rehabbing from a couple of violent injuries complete with nerve damage) is that starting from a baseline and combining both climbing with specific training produced the fastest overall gains. Hence my skepticism about focusing solely on sending particular problems in order to raise one's overall level.
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