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aimeerose
Feb 15, 2006, 10:56 PM
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Just wanted to educate the beginners out there not to toprope out of the anchors. No matter what's at the top (chains, open shuts, leaver biners- please leave them, BTW). It creates a lot of wear and someone has to replace them. It's easy and relatively safe, to just put 2 draws at the top and reverse the bottom biner on one. Or, if you're doing a lot of toproping make draws with lockers, so you're super safe, or use webbing. There's lots of options.
Thanks!
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ryanhos
Feb 16, 2006, 12:20 AM
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That's fine and dandy, but perhaps we should also educate the route setters to STOP HANGING THE SHUTS AT 45 DEGREES TOWARD EACH OTHER. So many people see the shuts hung this way in the gym where we are MEANT to TR from them that when they hang them outside, they do it without thinking. When TRing from the anchors, the forces on the shuts work out such that 45 degrees is the optimal angle at which to mount them. However, if you expect us to hang draws and TR from the draws, then shuts hung at 45 degrees experience forces that they were not meant to withstand. Furthermore, if the shuts do hold up, the forces put on them by constant TRing from the draws will have a tendency to torque the shuts back to something closer to vertical. That certainly can't be good for the bolt holding the cold shut to the rock.
I'm all for preserving the fixed anchors by TRing off of your own gear, but when the shuts are hung improperly, it means that no matter which TR method you choose, you're likely to damage them over time.
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caughtinside
Feb 16, 2006, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: That's fine and dandy, but perhaps we should also educate the route setters to STOP HANGING THE SHUTS AT 45 DEGREES TOWARD EACH OTHER. So many people see the shuts hung this way in the gym where we are MEANT to TR from them that when they hang them outside, they do it without thinking. When TRing from the anchors, the forces on the shuts work out such that 45 degrees is the optimal angle at which to mount them. However, if you expect us to hang draws and TR from the draws, then shuts hung at 45 degrees experience forces that they were not meant to withstand. Furthermore, if the shuts do hold up, the forces put on them by constant TRing from the draws will have a tendency to torque the shuts back to something closer to vertical. That certainly can't be good for the bolt holding the cold shut to the rock. I'm all for preserving the fixed anchors by TRing off of your own gear, but when the shuts are hung improperly, it means that no matter which TR method you choose, you're likely to damage them over time.
What? You have to position the shuts at 45 degrees towards each other. If you hang them straight down, they'll get pulled inwards naturally when people lower off them.
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alpinismo_flujo
Feb 16, 2006, 12:41 AM
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Don't lower off them either - RAP!
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caughtinside
Feb 16, 2006, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: Don't lower off them either - RAP!
It's a when in Rome thing dude. If you're sport climbing, you lower. Unless you're one of those 'serious' trad dudes who sport climbs with shoulder length runners, prussiks and a nut tool.
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weschrist
Feb 16, 2006, 12:47 AM
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rapping from a sport climbs is dumb
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aimeerose
Feb 16, 2006, 1:30 AM
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I agree. Rapping from sport climbs is dumb. That's when many accidents happen to very experienced climbers, let alone newbies. If people don't TR off the anchors, and 1 person in each party lowers off the anchor at the end of the climbing session, then I believe the wear on the anchor will be minimal.
Also, if people leave leaver biners or those big clippable links from the hardware store (I don't know what they're called-forgive me), then they can easily be replaced once they wear out.
Another note to beginners- if you see biners on an anchor (or those hardware store thingies) they are NOT bootie!!!! Please do not take them. Thank you.
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artsylady567
Feb 16, 2006, 1:32 AM
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by not TR'ing off the anchors it saves the life of the gear and maybe the life of one who least expects it
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rasperas
Feb 16, 2006, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: I agree. Rapping from sport climbs is dumb
I disagree. When you lower off a route the safety is in the hands of the belayer who is many feet below you. When you rap off, you have complete control over your own safety. -Personally I am more comfortable when my life is in my own hands.
Also, wear on the anchors/rap rings is reduced. -Look at this:
http://climbaz.com/service/rapring.html
-Rod
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weschrist
Feb 16, 2006, 1:52 AM
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we are talking about sport climbs here... you know, where you have quickdraws and such to clean off of steep overhanging rock? you can't always rap, it just doesn't work... and since the most important thing is to reduce confusion and make sure everyone knows exactly what is expected to happen, it just makes much more sense to keep it consistant... ie, being lowered off sport climbs.
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letolives
Feb 16, 2006, 2:02 AM
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If you have ever cleaned a sport route that is steeper than hell and still think it should be done on rappel then you are an idiot. However you have probably never climbed anything steeper than the upper half of my bare ass and so you don't know what you are talking about. That makes you a double idiot and retard to boot.
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roseraie
Feb 16, 2006, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: Unless you're one of those 'serious' trad dudes who sport climbs with shoulder length runners, prussiks and a nut tool.
Stop making fun of me, Dave. I *NEED* my nut tool for the gym.
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lhwang
Feb 16, 2006, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: Or, if you're doing a lot of toproping make draws with lockers, so you're super safe, or use webbing. There's lots of options. Thanks!
Just to clarify... if you lower directly off of webbing, you will end up sawing through the webbing with the rope. Not a good thing. You need to lower off of a locking biner or two quickdraws with the gates in opposite directions.
Pfft.... rap or lower off of a sport climb...? There are situations where either is acceptable, and situations where one is a slightly better option than the other. Bottom line? Communicate with your partner. I usually rap... less wear on the anchor, and I get to be in control. And it *is* possible to clean an overhanging route on rappel.
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locker
Feb 16, 2006, 3:35 AM
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caughtinside wrote...
"Unless you're one of those 'serious' trad dudes who sport climbs with shoulder length runners, prussiks and a nut tool."
true story... last year or the one before, I was out at New Jack climbing of course. Jack walks by and yells up to me... "What are you doing with that cordelette"???...
ROOT BEER!!!
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daithi
Feb 16, 2006, 3:54 AM
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In reply to: lower off of a sport climb...? There are situations where either is acceptable, and situations where one is a slightly better option than the other.
There is also one that will result in everyone else at the crag thinking your clueless.
In reply to: When you lower off a route the safety is in the hands of the belayer who is many feet below you.
Is this the same belayer who has held all of your falls as you dogged your way up the route. Seriously, if they can't be trusted even to lower you to the ground, they are redundant as a belayer!
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dustonian
Feb 16, 2006, 4:11 AM
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this entire thread is retarded
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bloodyhands
Feb 16, 2006, 4:27 AM
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http://climbaz.com/...graphics/rapring.jpg
This is what top roping and lowering off can do to rap rings.
Would you want to rap off of this? Anchors don't last for ever, and top-roping/ lowering speeds up their wear exponentially.
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aimeerose
Feb 16, 2006, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: And it *is* possible to clean an overhanging route on rappel.
Maybe a slightly overhanging route, but we're not talking about your overhanging 5.10 jug haul. Try cleaning Fear and Loathing in Vegas, anything hard on the Minimum wall in Maple or most super-overhanging 5.12 or harder routes on rappel. It's just flat out dangerous, if not impossible. Many times it's necessary to keep the rope clipped to the first bolt and stay clipped to the rope leading through that draw and lower to the ground. Then you have to use a stick-clip to get the first draw. I'd love to see you clean something like that on rappel!
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dustonian
Feb 16, 2006, 4:38 AM
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um, OK, so if the rings are dangerously worn, donīt lower off them and replace them with something new. do we really need to talk about this anymore?
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bloodyhands
Feb 16, 2006, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And it *is* possible to clean an overhanging route on rappel. Maybe a slightly overhanging route, but we're not talking about your overhanging 5.10 jug haul. Try cleaning Fear and Loathing in Vegas, anything hard on the Minimum wall in Maple or most super-overhanging 5.12 or harder routes on rappel. It's just flat out dangerous, if not impossible. Many times it's necessary to keep the rope clipped to the first bolt and stay clipped to the rope leading through that draw and lower to the ground. Then you have to use a stick-clip to get the first draw. I'd love to see you clean something like that on rappel!
I admit that some times I am forced to lower off, but I rap when ever I can.
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waterman
Feb 16, 2006, 5:35 AM
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whats wrong with rapping off? I have to untie anyway, it takes all of 20 extra seconds to put out enough line to touch the ground and saves wear and tear on the system? Unless your a bumbling idiot rapping should be no more risky than having to retie in and being lowered.
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aimeerose
Feb 16, 2006, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: whats wrong with rapping off?
Please read my previous posts. I don't feel like repeating myself.
Also, maybe take a look at Injuries and Accidents in North America and see how many accidents happen when experienced climbers rap off of sport routes. I've been at Red Rocks when this has happened- it's not pretty.
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kalcario
Feb 16, 2006, 6:10 AM
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In reply to: Unless your a bumbling idiot rapping should be no more risky than having to retie in and being lowered.
Until something goes wrong...then it is much more dangerous, the main hazard being loss of consciousness while rapping as opposed to same while being lowered. The use of a rappel back-up device like a prusik knot merely trades one bad situation for another (unconscious rappeler now hanging from prusik knot). A belayer using a grigri is immunized from dropping the lowering climber through loss of consciousness because the grigri locks up. ATC's and rappeling are still de rigueur for multipitch, but for single pitch sport? No.
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james_climber
Feb 16, 2006, 6:17 AM
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those anchors are ok, but not directly to the rope , use biners , lockers
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