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clausti
Mar 6, 2006, 3:32 AM
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A lot of us climb primarily with guys. Is this because we feel more comfortable with guys, as they are not "competition" for us? Do you feel threatened climbing with other ladies?
Are ladies more vicious to each other than guys are? Or is it simply more passive-agressive? Which is more detrimental to women climbing, "sex toy" adverts, or women calling each other sluts?
discuss.
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climbingbetty22
Mar 6, 2006, 5:53 AM
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Oh clausti *sigh* This is exactly why you are on my Top 10 RC.commers-to-meet-one-day list.
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nola_angie
Mar 6, 2006, 12:18 PM
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of all the days I can't rate....
I think women can be downright terrible to each other. I don't feel threatened by other women climbers, but often I feel judged (based on skill...like as tho they don't want to waste time with me until I can redpoint a 5.11) and get a lot of unfriendly vibe.
Tho, there are some women at the gym I'm at right now who are AWESOME and really nice.
Last time I climbed seriously with a female partner, people thought we were the cutest couple.... :shock: she was like a sister to me, but we were not *family* like that!!!!
In the end, I usually climb with guys because I know they'll always be there. It's a lot easier for a chick to get a boyfriend and drop off for a bit than it is for one of the guys to do the same. But either attitude...the calling each other names or the sex toy advert don't help break sterotypes. And lets face it, no matter how hard you climb, there will always be the creeps of both genders out there!
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acacongua
Mar 6, 2006, 2:27 PM
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I climb with some awesome women at the Red. I love it!
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kimmyt
Mar 6, 2006, 2:49 PM
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I think it depends on finding the right women. Let's face it, with guys we can be any number of people. We can 'fit' ourselves to the needed relationship. We can be little sister, we can be big sister/mother, we can be just one of the guys, we can be the you-wish-you-could-have-me love interest, we can be the flirt. We can be the center of attention from a group of guys, wanted by all and had by none, and this makes us feel great.
With women, we have to be ourselves.
And that is sometimes a scary thing. We can't rely on our sexuality, our ability to tell dirty jokes. We just have to rely on our true personality and how we fit well with the other woman's personality. It's harder to hide differing personalities when theres nothing false to hide them behind.
I have to admit, I am more competitive with other women than I am with men. If a guy can do something that I can't, I shrug. Different body types, whatever. But if a gal can do something...climb harder than me in a shorter time, I find that it bugs me. It shouldn't, because girls have different body types just like guys do, but it still does. It's something we have to consciously just 'get over'. If I find myself being standoffish or rude to someone I try and ask myself why I'm doing it. Is it because I'm threatened? Jealous? Probably a little bit of both. To me, there's no need to be nasty to a person, no matter what they do to me. But then I've always been more of a passive person, despite all my talk. And honestly, I've never had anyone call me a nasty name. I don't think anyone deserves such treatment (or rather, very few people deserve it).
That being said, I have some fantastic women climbing partners now. They're newer climbers in the realm of outdoor climbing than I am, but they climb much harder. (It's nice to have something to fall back on, when you simply come down to a lack of skill...at least I can teach them how to clean an anchor!!) But mostly, it's great to climb with them because it's fun. They're fun people, and when I climb with them I find myself laughing more than getting frustrated. And if I get frustrated...well I just tell myself that if I was a 5'0" woman who weighed 90 lbs maybe I could get up that 5.11 too.
K.
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acacongua
Mar 6, 2006, 3:29 PM
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Read any books on the evolution of human behavior and you'll find competitiveness is innate. We want to prove that we can outrun the dinosaurs! I met two women recently who gave up climbing because they couldn't be at the top of the game right away. So silly.
I know many hardcore women like to climb with guys just because there aren't that many women at that level. My guess why the lower grade climbers climb with men is because they already accept that men climb harder and they don't have to push themselves or compete. Some women have SOs and just feel more confident and comfortable with them.
I guess you could say that there are many reasons.
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happiegrrrl
Mar 6, 2006, 6:04 PM
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My best climbing partner is a woman, at the same level as myself. I am looking forward to this season and to developing strength in our partnership.
That said - all my other partners are men.
Simply because there aren't a lot of women who "fit" out there. No other reason.
My "fit" has to be someone who is capable of and willing to be responsible for themselves, and also who enjoys hilarity and good times, along with being a safe climber and rather intelligent. Man or woman, these things are what makes me happy with a climbing partner.
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climbingbetty22
Mar 6, 2006, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: I think it depends on finding the right women. Let's face it, with guys we can be any number of people. We can 'fit' ourselves to the needed relationship. We can be little sister, we can be big sister/mother, we can be just one of the guys, we can be the you-wish-you-could-have-me love interest, we can be the flirt. We can be the center of attention from a group of guys, wanted by all and had by none, and this makes us feel great. With women, we have to be ourselves. And that is sometimes a scary thing. We can't rely on our sexuality, our ability to tell dirty jokes. We just have to rely on our true personality and how we fit well with the other woman's personality. It's harder to hide differing personalities when theres nothing false to hide them behind.
Wow Kimmy! I wish I could rate posts today! I'd give this insightful post all 5 gold trophies! I never looked at it this way before! Over the last couple years, I've noticed that I get along with guys better because I feel more comfortable. I always justified this as I couldn't be myself around other women (I can have a pretty raw sense of humor at times.) I never thought of this in the reverse terms- a ploy to pretend to be someone one other then who I was, just to get along with and be accepted by the guys. I've always wished that I had more female climbing partners but everytime I meet a female climber I don't mesh with, I get discouraged and think that I am hopelessly unable to have female friends/climbing partners. But this post has given me some major food for thought in that it may be more my lack of effort and honesty about who I am, which is interesting because I've always thought of myself as someone who was pretty honest with who I was. Definitely something to think about.... :idea: :?:
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unabonger
Mar 6, 2006, 6:51 PM
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I agree that it seems innate.
What circumstances bring out competitiveness in you, personally? Who, when they are spoken of, makes you want to (figuratively) kick their butt, and why?
I know (as a guy) that certain men invoke a stronger competitive response in me than other men. And I've sometimes seen men be competitive with me more so than other friends they have. Or less.
I guess the intensity of competitiveness during an acute personal interaction depends on the percieved threat the competitor poses, and the willingness of participants to challenge face and risk face in social situations.
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climberterp
Mar 6, 2006, 7:43 PM
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Kimmy gets a trophy from me! (yay! my first one!)
Mucho food for thought here. Why don't I have more female climbing partners? I've often told myself it's because I just don't know very many women who climb regularly. I've met most of my climbing partners through the gym, and though there have been quite a few women who start climbing not many of them stick around long enough to actually climb outside, nevermind become a regular partner of mine. So that's certainly a big part of it.
But Kimmy's comments got me wondering a bit more about why I seem to click better with guys. I guess there is a part of me that enjoys the 'center of attention' bit....it's kind of fun to be unique one in a group just by virtue of being a girl. And the 'wanted by all and had by none' aspect is fun for the ego. :D
So, do I have fewer female partners because they're harder to get along with, more judgemental and all that? Or is it because I'm harder to get along with?? Or is it just situational? Lack of access to women who climb equals fewer female partners. Or....... I don't know. Some combination of all of the above probably! I do feel more competitive w/women, for sure. I think I have higher expectations for myself in comparison to other women than I do to the guys I climb with. I feel more like I have to keep up or be better than the girls to continue getting attention from the guys. :oops:
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kimmyt
Mar 6, 2006, 9:20 PM
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Thanks for the trophies, girls.
But I want to clarify that I'm basically just speaking for myself (I don't at all want to get into trouble for making assumptions about other gals!). It's something that bugged me from back when I was a 'I don't really get along with other girls' girl. It was when I opened up more, to myself, accepted myself more (and am still working on this, believe me) that I found myself really enjoying the friendship of other females.
I'm not saying that if you don't get along with other girls, it's because there's something wrong with you. It could really be that maybe you just haven't found the right kind of girls. I think maybe women in sports, particularly those sports where there isn't so much of a 'team' effort, might be more likely to be the type of girl that just has more guy friends. Let's face it, I bet most of us spent our childhoods playing in the dirt with the boys. It's hard to change that, even as we grow up and into women and our relationships with those boys change.
I just wanted to bring up my slightly different perspective because I get sad sometimes when women talk about how they hate other women and how they are only friends with guys. Because I used to be that girl, and once I figured out that maybe it wasn't other girls but maybe it was me, I found myself having these wonderfully fulfilling friendships with other women. And I get sad when other girls don't have those as well. But then, to each their own. And I do know that what feels right for one person may not feel right for another.
K.
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mindaa
Mar 6, 2006, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: 'center of attention' bit....it's kind of fun to be unique one in a group just by virtue of being a girl. And the 'wanted by all and had by none' aspect is fun for the ego
I can definitely relate to this feeling! As much as I used to deny it, that's how I felt until I met my fiance. But of course he's now the only guy I want attention from. :D And my main climbing partner, which is fabulous, but I don't think I would appreciate it as much without regular girls' days out - and threads like these make me SO thankful for the wondeful, supportive, funny, easy to get along with women friends that I have to climb with! I appreciate the the reminder, I would never want to take them for granted.
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bahandi
Mar 7, 2006, 4:15 AM
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question... would you ladies say that you are less willing to compromise when it comes to other women?
i'm just asking because my psycology teacher once did an experiment on the class. he separated the guys and girls and had each group 'debate' on a particular subject. all the girls thought we men, being stubborn and meat headed, would get no where in our debate.
to make a long story short, the guys were relaxed, chill and actually laughed through our differences, whereas the women were at each others throats. haha... the whole class seemed surprised at that.
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tavs
Mar 7, 2006, 9:05 PM
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I think kimmyt implied this, but it really just comes down to a personal thing. So me, I'm a competitive person. I try not to show it outwardly too much but it's definitely going on internally. It's not that climbing is about competition in any way, but it's simply that I admittedly bring a competitive spirit to everything I do. Competition, for me, is largely an internal thing--I simply want to do well all the time--but it manifests itself sometimes in comparison with others, because they give an additional, more obvious benchmark to judge by. And it doesn't really matter who I'm climbing with, male or female, stronger than me or not.
For example, my main climbing partner is my boyfriend, who's somewhat (though not a ton) stronger than me. I want to climb as well as he does--sometimes that means physically (like on routes or problems I know we can both do), sometimes it means mentally--competitiveness in climbing for me isn't just about strength, but about the mental side (I do a lot of trad and ice) too. So while he might climb harder than I do on gear routes, I want to keep up with him "mentally"--if he's having a good day (for him), I want to have a good day (for me) too; if his head is strong, I want to be too. And it's like this with many partners, male and female. I'd say I'm more externally competitive with those who are closest to me in ability, again, male or female.
Reading this, it seems as if competitiveness dominates my climbing, and that really isn't true. I am, as I said, internally competitive almost all the time--I just like to succeed (though I have gotten better about having different standards for success--on "weak" days, sometimes success simply means sticking with shit). Competition with others doesn't dominate things, but it is there, especially with certain partners who are similar to me.
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heximp
Mar 9, 2006, 1:17 AM
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Women do have a bad habit of being non-confrontational. The average woman uses passive tactics such as talking about you to others, she does this instead of directly dealing with you and the issue. Men usually glare, blow up, grumble etc. immediately when upset.
Then again, women are better at talking about issues. Men usually are non-communicators; they would rather just state things. Yes, men are good at talking "at you..." They are usually bad at talking "with you..."
Since I can't fix anything I don't know about... Men can be easier since they are more obvious about being angry. Yet, if I need them to participate in fixing something, there can be a problem.
Women can hide their anger, but they are usually easier to work with on fixing things. They are usually very helpful with working things out.
I have many positive experiences climbing with both women and men. My bad experiences have been based upon individual faults, I don't see an issue with a specific gender. I usually climb more with men because there are just more experience men then women. Plus, I grew up with boys so I am use to them. Yet when a woman compliments me, I believe her more then my male counterparts. I see less of an agenda with her compliments, especially if it is about my looks. I also see woman partner more of an equal and co-worker on routes. My male partners usually need to establish a pecking order during a climb and clarify leadership.
I love climbing with both genders. There is a difference between them, but they both offer great experiences. I am slowly getting more women partners. (I can't wait to have a woman mentor.)
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climbingbetty22
Mar 9, 2006, 2:48 AM
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In reply to: I think kimmyt implied this, but it really just comes down to a personal thing. So me, I'm a competitive person. I try not to show it outwardly too much but it's definitely going on internally. It's not that climbing is about competition in any way, but it's simply that I admittedly bring a competitive spirit to everything I do. Competition, for me, is largely an internal thing--I simply want to do well all the time--but it manifests itself sometimes in comparison with others, because they give an additional, more obvious benchmark to judge by. And it doesn't really matter who I'm climbing with, male or female, stronger than me or not.
Wow, I feel exactly the same way. Here I just thought it was my own little personal "flaw."
Kimmy- I know what you said in your previous post was more of a personal reflection then necessarily a pronouncement of how all women work, but I found it particularly enlightening and I never thought about it that way before. But the more I think about it, the more I feel like that is true in my own life as well.
Some events that have happened in my life recently, including a conversation with my mom and one with my-ex, made me realize that I am not as comfortable and accepting of myself as I previously thought. That my competitive streak stems from my obsession with feeling superior to someone, that I constantly strive to be better without accepthing what I've already acoomplished as significant, and that in relationships, I probably change too much to be accepted and loved by someone instead of loving myself first and foremost.
The good news is that I got invited to a full moon ceremony next week... I already know what I want to manifest in my life.. total love and acceptance of myself.
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aimeerose
Mar 12, 2006, 5:52 PM
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It's pure numbers. There's more men who climb than women, so it's a heck of a lot easier to find male partners.
Oh, the point of the thread was competition between women, I forgot. I find that if I am the stronger climber, I set the tone, so I make it friendly and non-competitive. When there have been stronger female climbers than me, I've found them to be mostly friendly. The problem seems to lie with those who I climb just a shade harder than, especially if they are used to being the strongest woman at a crag. I have had such bad vibes directed at me, I was uncomfortable climbing. Course that was a few years ago, I think now I'm better at ignoring that. Also, I've only had this kind of thing happen a handful of times in 10 years of climbing, so that's not too bad, but it's always women.
But that is an example of why it's sometimes nicer to climb with men. They don't pull that kind of crap. I've always found male climbers to be super encouraging whether I'm climbing harder or easier than them.
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chknlittle
Mar 13, 2006, 2:09 AM
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Maura, You asked the questions honey, you will get some answers right here from a girl who has been around you climbing. What better response could you ask for other than a VERY honest uninhibited response from someone who has witnessed you in action?! Hey you asked for this...
In your post you admitted to all the reasons I never liked you! You are a MARRIED "woman"/girl yet you somehow find it necessary to be the center of attention of other girls boyfriends....this IS a reason that you don't have many female climbing partners...most of the females you climb with that I know of, also climb with their boyfriends...therefore, girls see you struggling for the attention of their boyfriends and think you are just WRONG! YOU ARE FAKE when it come to girls....FLIRTY when it comes to guys....JUST ONE HINT....GIRLS DONT LIKE THIS TRAIT IN OTHER GIRLS....you put forth this unapproachable, comeptitave front that makes these girls NOT get you and NOT want to talk to you.
Frankly I never saw you as the center of attention so I don't think that girls dislike you for any kind of jealousy issue. From what I saw, YOU were never the center of attention as you seem to think you are....I think you are full of yourself if you think that these good looking guys that are at least 5 years younger than you are in awe over you....They clearly are not...To answer your question the reason you don't have mre female climbing partners is simply the fact that you are nice to guys and cold to girls...at least to me......That was my experience with you...I'm sure other girls may have a different feeling but that is how you treated me....there are 2 possible reasons for this but for the sake of not being too personal, I wont share them here.....Now, yoou should thank me, I just gave you a reason to go crying to Jed again...and get some more attention. Good luck.
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2006, 2:43 AM
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In reply to: Maura, You asked the questions honey, you will get some answers right here from a girl who has been around you climbing. What better response could you ask for other than a VERY honest uninhibited response from someone who has witnessed you in action?! Hey you asked for this... In your post you admitted to all the reasons I never liked you! You are a MARRIED "woman"/girl yet you somehow find it necessary to be the center of attention of other girls boyfriends....this IS a reason that you don't have many female climbing partners...most of the females you climb with that I know of, also climb with their boyfriends...therefore, girls see you struggling for the attention of their boyfriends and think you are just WRONG! YOU ARE FAKE when it come to girls....FLIRTY when it comes to guys....JUST ONE HINT....GIRLS DONT LIKE THIS TRAIT IN OTHER GIRLS....you put forth this unapproachable, comeptitave front that makes these girls NOT get you and NOT want to talk to you. Frankly I never saw you as the center of attention so I don't think that girls dislike you for any kind of jealousy issue. From what I saw, YOU were never the center of attention as you seem to think you are....I think you are full of yourself if you think that these good looking guys that are at least 5 years younger than you are in awe over you....They clearly are not...To answer your question the reason you don't have mre female climbing partners is simply the fact that you are nice to guys and cold to girls...at least to me......That was my experience with you...I'm sure other girls may have a different feeling but that is how you treated me....there are 2 possible reasons for this but for the sake of not being too personal, I wont share them here.....Now, yoou should thank me, I just gave you a reason to go crying to Jed again...and get some more attention. Good luck.
:roll:
Meow.
Well, I think we've gotten to the root of this issue! hahaha
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chknlittle
Mar 13, 2006, 2:58 AM
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Hahaha, perfect response by 'caughtinside'! hehehe.
Some people just bring out pure, raw, honesty in others whether or not it's the nicest thing to say....for me it's very rare to allow myself to be so unflitered and BLUNTLY rude.
MEOW is right! :lol:
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aimeerose
Mar 13, 2006, 5:52 AM
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Well, at least you're honest. Guess you had some things to say and it sounded like you had some reasons to say them. That's much more respectable than unsolicited name calling, as I've frequently seen in this forum.
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aimeerose
Mar 13, 2006, 5:55 AM
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Well, at least you're honest. Guess you had some things to say and it sounded like you had some reasons to say them. That's much more respectable than unsolicited name calling, as I've seen and been the victim of on this site.
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chknlittle
Mar 13, 2006, 1:35 PM
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Thanks! I have been victim to that in this forum BY the girl I was speaking of here. Usually, I wouldn't confront someone in this type of public board, but she did ask the questions, so I answered....and the fact that she did this to me before and made me look like a fool...there really is something about payback that can be quite healing! Hahaha, I know immature! I can live with that in this one situation. 8^)
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2006, 5:51 PM
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Ok, since this is a serious thread, I'll add my two bits (even though I'm a dude.)
I was dating a young woman not too long ago, who was a pretty good climber. Her best friend was also a pretty good climber. The three of us would gym and sport climb together often. Sometimes with other folks too.
The thing was, these two ladies were so damn competitive with each other, it really sucked the fun out of everything. There had to be a 'winner' between the two of them at everything. Even in the gym! One of them onsighted an .11 sport route, and I lowered her, she was super stoked. Then the other one got up and hiked the route too, and the first one was super pissed all of a sudden!
And these girls are best friends. I finally told the one I was dating I couldn't take it any more. Because whoever the 'loser' was that day, would sink into a foul mood and bring everyone down. It sucked!
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