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moeman
Mar 25, 2006, 5:13 AM
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I recently got back from Moab. Not a climbing trip, just a visit with family. Snowed the whole time there, gorgeous country.
Anyway, looking at routes (passed through Wall Street area) and thumbing though a guidebook, it seems that a popular desert practice is to, in place of a bolt, drill a hole and pound in a baby angle piton. Guidebook essentailly stated that in the desert, drilled angles and bolts are one and the same.
So the question is: why use drilled angles in the desert, but rarely anywhere alse. Are they prefered to bolts for expnse reasons? ease of placemnt? Or do these actually work better than bolts in the soft sandstone. Also, why use these in the desert, but nowhere else? (Rust concerns, I assume).
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climbingaggie03
Mar 25, 2006, 6:35 AM
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I don't really know why this is done in the desert, but it is also done at the garden of the gods, there are some bolts, but there are tons of pitons that were drilled, I have no idea why, but it's sandstone too, so I'd think that it has to do with holding power, and the technology availible when the climb was put up.
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moose_droppings
Mar 25, 2006, 6:54 AM
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If were lucky, maybe Drilledangle will post up, I'm sure he could tell us more.
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stroker
Mar 25, 2006, 2:57 PM
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It is hard to get the expansion sleeve or an expansion bolt to catch in really soft rock. Whever I drilled a hole, with a handrill or power drill, I would look to see if the hole was boring out. Meaning that the outside of the hole was wider than the deeper end. This happens often, so the taper of a baby angle fits this shape nicely. I do believe that this was popular due to technology and its availablity, but also out of necessity. Baby angles, when placed properly, are absolutlely bomber. Yes, the pull out strength is not that good, but when do you fall away from the rock instead of down the rock? A baby angle also works well, if somebody yanks a bolt, and you want to utilize the hole again. Please leave all angles in the rock rather than pulling them out like a cheap bastard would.
TDA
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mesomorf
Mar 25, 2006, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: Yes, the pull out strength is not that good, but when do you fall away from the rock instead of down the rock?
One very experienced, very good climber (IIRC Jay Wilson) was killed when he (apparently) applied an outward pressure to the anchor while preparing to rappel. I don't recall now if it was a single drilled piton.
And it wasn't done because the first ascenders were cheap. Baby angles cost more than bolts, even stainless steel.
Once Harvey Carter started the trend at Garden of the Gods and elsewhere, I think many others did it just because it was the way it was done.
stroker is right about the spinning sleeve though. This happens often enough in hard rock. You know, those threaded bolts that stick way out? They were just "tightened" (that is, spun) until there were no more threads left. They never got tight in the hole.
But ease of placement? No. Unless the hole is properly prepared, you have to beat the shit out of the pin to get it in.
Which leads to another danger - a weakened eye. So be careful out there.
Are people using other techniques nowadays, like glue-ins?
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rockguide
Mar 25, 2006, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: (snip) Are people using other techniques nowadays, like glue-ins?
Perhaps for sport routes ... but for putting up routes on lead/ground up - impractical. Glue ins take a perfectly drilled hole (power drill) and up to 24 hours for the glue to set. - I have not place a glue-in in sandstone, but these are my experiences in limestone.
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mesomorf
Mar 25, 2006, 4:25 PM
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I see your point. But on Wingate and Navajo and the like, do people still use drilled angles?
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papounet
Apr 11, 2006, 4:36 PM
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Drilled angles have a short life expectancy in soft sandstone (as in Wadi Run area of Jordan) = 4 years
But they are easy to place
Glue-ins are much more long-lasting but to difficult,to place for the very rare guides that open routes there.
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golsen
Apr 11, 2006, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Yes, the pull out strength is not that good, but when do you fall away from the rock instead of down the rock? One very experienced, very good climber (IIRC Jay Wilson) was killed when he (apparently) applied an outward pressure to the anchor while preparing to rappel. I don't recall now if it was a single drilled piton. Which leads to another danger - a weakened eye. So be careful out there. Are people using other techniques nowadays, like glue-ins?
The bolt that pulled on Jay was 1/2" machine bolt hammered into a 3/8" hole. A very tragic accident.
In the old days we used what we thought was the best thing going. I even placed one of those old STAR drives on one of Wall Streets first routes. Star Drives suck (I later learned). On some of the softer rock, hand drilling, the hole invariably ends up being larger at the mouth. That makes a good candidate for angles.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 11, 2006, 11:55 PM
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Pins are wicked expensive so it has nothing to do with being cheap. The first belay of cherry crack in Zion was 2 drilled angles in 1986 and they were both loose enough that you could easily pull them out and slip them back in with your fingers :shock: My cheap partner who was the leader and my mentor made me clean the back up and rap off those loose angles. His rule was the leader raps first and the second cleans the backup and raps on the crap gear :roll: I was young, poor and didn't know any better.
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mesomorf
Apr 11, 2006, 11:59 PM
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In reply to: The bolt that pulled on Jay was 1/2" machine bolt hammered into a 3/8" hole. A very tragic accident.
Thanks for that. I now recall hearing now that the first guy or two down had a loosely clipped Friend backup, which Jay cleaned.
In reply to: Drilled angles have a short life expectancy in soft sandstone (as in Wadi Run area of Jordan) = 4 years
So in this Wadi Rum place, if the life expectancy of drilled angle is 4 years, what happens after that?
What rock here would compare? Cutler sandstone of the Fisher Towers?
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