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wsclimber
Apr 28, 2006, 9:08 PM
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Several friends and I have developed a crag and put together a guide book that we sell to those that manage to find the crag ($7).
Now word has gotten out to a 'professional' guide author who expects the developers to give him a guide/tour of crag, so he can publish.
Has anybody here had their small guide copy written to stave off this type of plagiarism? Also, granted if he hung out at the crag enough he could figure out the grades etc, and then put something together I guess...
And its not about $$, although after over $2,500 its nice to get a few bolts paid for here and there - its about not having hordes of folks show up all of a sudden. Word of mouth is great, a new guide at REI would likely negatively impact the area.
Thanks for your replies!
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kman
Apr 28, 2006, 9:21 PM
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You put out a guide yet you were hoping not many people found out about the place :?: Don't make no sense.
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rockguide
Apr 28, 2006, 9:35 PM
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Do you know how to make a small fortune as a guidebook author? Invest a large fortune.
No seriously, Build your routes without hope of re-couping your $$$. Print your guidebook with the best production values you can and hope for the best.
The routes are in public domain, and to my knowledge there never has been copyright challenged in the courts.
As for the "professional guidebook writer" demanding a tour? He (or she) can buy a guidebook and has to do the rest on their own.
as to access issues - if you go to other people's home crags, you should allow others to visit yours. If access is sensitive, then include in your guide what must be done to keep access open.
my 2cents
Brian
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wsclimber
Apr 28, 2006, 9:39 PM
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our amateur guide is sold at the crag, so if you find it, via word of mouth, you can get a guide. We felt the guide was needed since 1/2 the routes are mixed gear/bolts and we wanted to make sure folks new what routes those were. We don't want folks run-out on terrain over their head and ending up getting hurt.
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caughtinside
Apr 28, 2006, 9:44 PM
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So, talking to this 'professional' guide author isn't an option?
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climbsomething
Apr 28, 2006, 9:54 PM
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To my knowledge (admittedly, it's limited), your guidebook is technically copyrighted already. However, you can't copyright an area, and you can't keep somebody from wanting to write a book on the same subject that you have. If the pro writer researches the area with other locals or on his own (perhaps by purchasing your book!), and writes his own book without taking images, topos or text from your book, then he didn't infringe on your official or unofficial copyright.
Frankly, your post sounds territorial. Just because you were there first doesn't mean it's your sandbox.
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tanthalas39
Apr 28, 2006, 9:58 PM
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"Your a looser". An insult with two grammatical errors. I really hope that's on purpose.
*Edit: after further thought, I think it has to be on purpose, like the Fark.com "moran" insult.
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caughtinside
Apr 28, 2006, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: "Your a looser". An insult with two grammatical errors. I really hope that's on purpose. *Edit: after further thought, I think it has to be on purpose, like the Fark.com "moran" insult.
You must be new to this great medium we call 'the internet.'
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tanthalas39
Apr 28, 2006, 10:06 PM
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Amazingly, I'm not new to this "internet" thing. But thanks for thinking of me!
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dingus
Apr 28, 2006, 10:15 PM
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How did the professional guide book author come to know about your below the radar area? Clearly someone told him.
Seems to me you can't (the figurative you, not YOU specifically) go around telling people about your development without expecting word to get even farther around.
The old saying "Build it and they will come" isn't the best way to describe a new sport climbing area.
Build it, then TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT, and they will surely come.
Sounds to me like the cat is out of the bag.
I've been lucky enough to help develop some small time areas or a couple longer routes here and there. Bouldering too. Some of these places I'm very willing to share (and have) and others I am much more selfish about, in 2 cases I'm sworn and have sworn others to secrecy.
It isn't so much wanting to keep the sandbox to ourselves, ie that we don't want to share. All of my partners are very willing with their information. Its more enlightened self-interest... tell people TOO SOON and that project we've been eyeing for 5 years is nabbed by someone else.
Nabbed ONLY because we blabbed about it. That has happened to me, blew an FA possibility (one we had already tried once) to a better climber after blabbing about it to a gear shop manager.
I don't intend to make that mistake again, though I've certainly treaded the thin line a time or two.
DMT
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wsclimber
Apr 28, 2006, 10:44 PM
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you got it DMT, a person from THIS SITE, who has not been there, made a reference on a different forum about it, and that I believe got the authors curiosity going. And even better, when I had PM'd that person about the location of a crag I heard he was developing (as one developer to another...) I got the cold shoulder.
We have already seen retro bolting, tree cutting and manufactured holds appear.
Perhaps my post should have been "I am sad b/c my crag ain't mine" LOL!
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laurajpetersen
Apr 28, 2006, 10:56 PM
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Sing along! "...This land is your land, this land is my land, from California..."
Just like everyone else said, if you didn't want to "share" the info about your developed crag, why did you put it out there? At least the guidebook author asked you first about the area.
Last year, my friend and I put out a guidebook for my local area even though there was already a book out that had be released several years before. I made sure that the other authors of the older book knew what we were doing and had permission to use some of their information from the older book.
Just make a good deal with the other guy and be happy that someone else is interested:) Good luck!
Cheers,
laura p.
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bler
Apr 28, 2006, 11:42 PM
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hahaha, your developing an area, yet you don't want someone else to write a better guide it sounds like..
if the 'pro' has the skills to write a decent guide, no one wants to pay $7 for a piece of napkin that has circles drawn, they would rather drop $25 on a decent guide..
your acting like you own this area... and any guide that may be written about it..
seems like you do not want to be one-upped by some one that can write a better guide and bring people to the area that can possibly climb harder then you and establish some of your 'projects'...
I have had many projects that I've brought stronger people to send.. dude, like Greg Loh who has developed some great areas has said before.. 'if I cant send the project, I'd love to see someone else send it' quit being so selfish, grow up and if you dont want anyone to know, dont tell..
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tradrenn
Apr 29, 2006, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: "Your a looser". An insult with two grammatical errors. I really hope that's on purpose.
Like we already don't know it should say "You're a looser"
Thanks for an update.
Now, be nice Hilary is a Moderator.
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vanclimber
Apr 29, 2006, 1:02 AM
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Registered: May 31, 2002
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Actually I believe it should read "You're a loser."
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dudemanbu
Apr 29, 2006, 1:15 AM
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Simple solution, because if he's set on publishing a guide, whether you help him or not.
You've just got to publish your book first. Make it better, and get it published so that you can recoup some of the money you spent developing the area. If it's on private property, you can get the owner to limit the number of people that are allowed to climb. You can publish that limit in the guidebook, with a line that says "please respect the rules, as access can be revoked at any time."
That's probably the best option, imho.
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treez
Apr 29, 2006, 1:21 AM
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Registered: Aug 11, 2004
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So where is this place?
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gogo
Apr 29, 2006, 1:49 AM
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Registered: Apr 6, 2004
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Unless you misspelled "amatuer" on purpose in your subject, maybe your guidebook could use a rewrite. . .or at least some editing.
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buddha_monkee
Apr 29, 2006, 2:37 AM
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Registered: Jun 12, 2005
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Just a guess, but I bet you could try here for what it means to copyright something.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
Good luck.
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