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dirtineye
May 1, 2006, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making. So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect. Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool? Consider the possibility that you are wrong. Step back from your extreme position and consider that sometimes a quickdraw is fine.
In reply to: You still haven't explained how quickdraws magically remove nuts. All you do is continually assert that trad draws are needed for all placements. Maybe people who show you more respect if you actually explain you views.
Nah you can respect me for my FAs and trailwork, and efforts developing crags. This idea of zippering, it has been covered over and over for years, how about you do your own reserch and report back here?
In reply to: I do however agree with your comment about the power of a falling climber. Setting a nut isn't a solution to a bad nut placement. Your nuts should be place such that forces produced in a fall cannot remove the nut. This is nut placement 101 and should be obvious.
Well that's nice we agree on something. I put you in advanced nut placement 102.
How many climbs did you say you had done all passive, by the way?
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patto
May 2, 2006, 12:32 PM
Post #27 of 37
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In reply to: How many climbs did you say you had done all passive, by the way?
Actually I have done numerous climbs all passive. I normally climb with 2 sets of nuts and use them often. I wont claim to be a climbing veteren, I sure you have more experience that I do.
However your experience doesn't remove your obligation to explain rather than assert your views.
I'm going to step out of this argument because it is futile arguing on the internet against assertions.
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pendereki
May 2, 2006, 12:48 PM
Post #28 of 37
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Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread.
I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever.
CM
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patto
May 2, 2006, 12:59 PM
Post #29 of 37
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In reply to: Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread. I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever. CM
He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.
As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem. Sometimes a quickdraw is sufficient to ensure that there is no rope drag, sometimes it isn't and a longer sling is needed.
Are you saying that a draw is NEVER long enough to remove rope drag?
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gordo
May 2, 2006, 1:36 PM
Post #30 of 37
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In reply to: In reply to: Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread. I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever. CM He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect. As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem. Sometimes a quickdraw is sufficient to ensure that there is no rope drag, sometimes it isn't and a longer sling is needed. Are you saying that a draw is NEVER long enough to remove rope drag?
Patto, Bro...you really need to understand the bold print before you continue this discussion, it will save us all a lot of painful internet blather.
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pendereki
May 2, 2006, 1:47 PM
Post #31 of 37
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patto wrote:Are you saying that a draw is NEVER long enough to remove rope drag?gunkiemike wrote:
trad draw - tripled 2 ft runner. Good for trad but bulky.
short draw - small (6, 8 or 12" open loop sling). Good for trad or sport.
sport draw - fairly stiff (many bartacks) 4 or 6" dogbone. Sport only.
If we accept this definition of 'draw', then IMO pretty much almost never would I use a sport draw on a nut. A longer, open loop is safer. I have witnessed the zipper---it is scary, terrifying even.
If the route were truely straight, less than six inches variance, a sport draw might be sufficient to reduce drag provided the belayer stand DIRECTLY under the line. If the belayer moves 6" out of true there can still be a very strong upward force on all but the top piece--enought to lift even a well set nut out of a good placement in a fall.
There, now you do not really have to read that part of "Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills", that is my summary of the Zipper Effect.
It is still a good read.
CM
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devkrev
May 2, 2006, 2:04 PM
Post #32 of 37
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In reply to: Dev sets his passive pieces with a series of rough jerks. I just about always need a nut tool.
You forgot to tell them about how I sew climbs up, and you might have 2 or 3 of these pieces from one stance :P
In reply to: I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever.
Okay, maybe I have a special circumstance, when you have long cracks that EAT passive gear. I dunno if you have ever climbed in CT(probably not, don't waste your time) but we have these funny cracks that are usually better for passive gear than cams.
I completely understand the dangers of pieces popping underweight, but if the nut is off to on e side, I'm definitely not "zagging" the rope, I'd just use a runner.
After reading through this dialog, I think we are all thinking in terms of "ALWAYS" or "NEVER" too much.
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reg
May 2, 2006, 2:54 PM
Post #33 of 37
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In reply to: In reply to: Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread. I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever. CM He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.
you should know that answer brother
In reply to: As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem.
you mean "through the draw" don't you? whether quick or trad. man when that rope goes tight in a fall it'll yank hard in three or four directions - up, out, side to side and inward. those sport draws really get a lot of friction and directional pull against them. i'd rather have trad draws on everything cept the straigest lines.
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reg
May 2, 2006, 2:58 PM
Post #34 of 37
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In reply to: In reply to: Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread. I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever. CM He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.
you should know that answer brother
In reply to: As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem.
you mean "through the draw" don't you? whether quick or trad. man when that rope goes tight in a fall it'll yank hard in three or four directions - up, out, side to side and inward. those sport draws really get a lot of friction and directional pull against them. i'd rather have trad draws on everything cept the straigest lines.
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petsfed
May 2, 2006, 3:45 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Let me see if I understand the patto-dirtineye argument.
Patto says that sometimes a short quikdraw style sling is sufficient. Dirtineye responds that you need to consider the zipper effect and sling accordingly. Patto says that even considering the zipper effect, sometimes a short sling is sufficient. Dirtineye says no, and maintains that the zipper effect needs to be considered.
Now, bearing in mind that the zipper effect is only an issue when the path of the rope gets steeper as it goes higher, why wouldn't a short draw be sufficient when the path of the rope doesn't get steeper? More importantly, if you've minimized rope drag, you've likewise minimized the effect of the zipper effect. If a draw is sufficient to achieve that goal, I don't see why it shouldn't be used, especially considering that it shortens the distance you can fall.
Would you suggest, dirtineye, that even on nearly straight routes with perfect keyhole nut placements that are deep and solid enough that the nut won't lift out, that a 24" sling is still the minimum, even though it has no advantages in that situation?
The answer to the op's question is (like everything in climbing) IT DEPENDS. I find it hard to believe that you've done that much climbing, dirtineye, and not encountered a situation where you could (and did) get away with using short quickdraws on nuts, unless your teachers were as patently dogmatic as you.
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dirtineye
May 2, 2006, 4:55 PM
Post #36 of 37
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In reply to: Let me see if I understand the patto-dirtineye argument. Patto says that sometimes a short quikdraw style sling is sufficient. Dirtineye responds that you need to consider the zipper effect and sling accordingly. Patto says that even considering the zipper effect, sometimes a short sling is sufficient. Dirtineye says no, and maintains that the zipper effect needs to be considered. Now, bearing in mind that the zipper effect is only an issue when the path of the rope gets steeper as it goes higher, why wouldn't a short draw be sufficient when the path of the rope doesn't get steeper? More importantly, if you've minimized rope drag, you've likewise minimized the effect of the zipper effect. If a draw is sufficient to achieve that goal, I don't see why it shouldn't be used, especially considering that it shortens the distance you can fall. Would you suggest, dirtineye, that even on nearly straight routes with perfect keyhole nut placements that are deep and solid enough that the nut won't lift out, that a 24" sling is still the minimum, even though it has no advantages in that situation? The answer to the op's question is (like everything in climbing) IT DEPENDS. I find it hard to believe that you've done that much climbing, dirtineye, and not encountered a situation where you could (and did) get away with using short quickdraws on nuts, unless your teachers were as patently dogmatic as you.
OK, you start out well, but then I lose you when you make the serious logical errors, including making unproved assumptions among othres.
Try again. Of course, you can always test your IDEA about zippering on a low angle route. But don't volunteer to be the test dummy.
And one last thing, your test situation is just silly.
You are quite right, I have not done much climbing in the last two months. You can however see a few of my exploits in the Dixie Craggers Guide, and you might note a few of the fellows I climb with too.
At least one of them is renowned for nutcraft.
I never said never. I said, MOST people do not know when.
But Fvck yeah, when in any doubt, or even as a matter of course, I extend. Short slinging has put me and my friends in more trouble than anything else. Well except for the time I wanted to drop the giant dead tree on em.
I htink you know where this is going.
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petsfed
May 2, 2006, 11:06 PM
Post #37 of 37
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In reply to: OK, you start out well, but then I lose you when you make the serious logical errors, including making unproved assumptions among othres. Try again. Of course, you can always test your IDEA about zippering on a low angle route. But don't volunteer to be the test dummy. And one last thing, your test situation is just silly. You are quite right, I have not done much climbing in the last two months. You can however see a few of my exploits in the Dixie Craggers Guide, and you might note a few of the fellows I climb with too. At least one of them is renowned for nutcraft. I never said never. I said, MOST people do not know when. But Fvck yeah, when in any doubt, or even as a matter of course, I extend. Short slinging has put me and my friends in more trouble than anything else. Well except for the time I wanted to drop the giant dead tree on em. I htink you know where this is going.
Ok. What I mean is this: suppose you have a beach ball. If the rope follows one of the seams on the exterior, given you're moving straight up, the zipper effect will not be an issue. Outward force is literally impossible. If, on the other hand, you're climbing that same seam on the interior of the beach ball, the zipper effect is an issue. That's what I mean by "if the path of the rope gets steeper". Its possible to have VERY steep routes where the zipper effect is not much of an issue. If the route curves to either side, you also deal with the same problem. The rule of thumb I've always operated on is that if the rope drag is at a shear minimum, when I fall the outward force on various pieces will be at a shear minimum. Force on the rope causes it to straighten out, no matter if its a small force or a big one. So if I keep a fairly straight path from me to my belayer through the prudent use of slings, the zipper effect should not be an issue. Sometimes a short draw is all that's necessary to bring the rope drag to a minimum, sometimes not.
Incidentally, what about my test is silly?
And FWIW, I don't doubt you've done a LOT of climbing, quite a few first ascents as you said. I just found it unlikely that a solid, experienced climber like yourself would suggest that doing it a certain way every time is the best solution.
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