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feanor007
May 6, 2006, 6:17 PM
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obviously, i'd perfer to onsight every climb, but that doesn't happen very often.
that said, when it comes to working sport routes and getting stronger, what have you guys and gals found most effective. top-roping until you feel comfortable/strong enough to red point, or leading it every time, even if that means bolt to bolt climbing with hangs at times until i red point.
background, i've been leading sport for 1.5ish years, but only this spring climbing outside consitantly (1-3 times/wk) and just started feeling comfortable leading mid .10s in the Red River Gorge.
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slablizard
May 6, 2006, 6:21 PM
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Up to you, leading and falling a lot means a shorter life for your rope...TR until you know the sequence enough to have a chance on lead.
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altelis
May 6, 2006, 6:32 PM
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depends on the route and the mood.
one thing to consider is that the steeper the route you just might be safer leading and falling/hang dogging than trying to unclip, fall, swing out, possibly needing to be lowered to the ground just to get on rock again....
use your judgment---but i tend to just lead everything. i rarely tend to work something on top rope. stuff that i think i can red point i can usually make it bolt to bolt without too many falls.
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gunkiemike
May 6, 2006, 7:56 PM
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I view TRing as physical training: it'll make you stronger and let you work on technique. That's all well and good, but you're going to need some mental skill and fortitude to onsight or redpoint hard routes. This you develop on the sharp end IMO.
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overlord
May 6, 2006, 8:25 PM
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depends on the route. first i try to dog it to work out the moves. if i can work it out in a session or two ill stay with the dogging, if it requires more work, ill TR it until i have the sequences wired.
the important thing when TRig is to remember to simulate clipping and have enough slack in the system to maintain proper balance.
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viciado
May 6, 2006, 8:44 PM
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Sometimes it is neither possible to top rope nor hangdog a route in order to "learn" to climb it. On a couple of overhanging routes I can think of, a swing on toprope takes you into the opposing rock face at a high rate of speed. On these routes, leading is also a bit sketchy for learning. An alternate method you could add to your resources is to "follow" or "second" the route that someone has lead and set the top rope, but left the draws in place with the rope running thjrough them. You tie into the rope coming from the lowest draw and unclip as you go. Your partner belays from a point beneath the anchor with the end of the rope used by the leader. If you fall, it is clean and you can "boing" back to the rock if necessary. This lets you work the moves safely and approximate the effort necessary to redpoint since you have to find the right stance to remove the draws.
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fracture
May 6, 2006, 9:22 PM
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In my experience it is almost always easier to work routes on lead than it is to do so on TR.
As fluxus suggested in a recent thread, people who do toprope-rehearsed leads on sport routes are usually just afraid of leading---it is not about rationally-evaluated efficient tactics, and concern about the lifetime of the rope is misplaced.
If you like projecting, and want to send more than one or two hard routes a season, it is almost certainly worth your while in the long run to desensitize yourself to fear of standard sport climbing falls, so that you can make choices about lead vs. toproping (including stick-clipping) based on what makes the route physically easiest (to send or to work) without regard for irrational fear.
Toprope-rehearsed leading is also quite strange because if you successfully do the route on toprope, what's the point of leading it? You've already linked all the moves---is clipping really that important to you? If so, maybe you're more of a sport clipper than a sport climber.
On the other hand, lead-rehearsed toproping (to coin a phrase) is frequently an efficient redpoint tactic for sport routes. By which I mean: working the moves out on lead (so that you don't go swinging away from the wall when you fall, etc), and then switching to have several bolts pre-clipped (I.e. toproped) in order to save energy when you start attempting to link the moves (whether you prefer to call it a "send" or a "redpoint" or whatever).
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ilikerock13
May 6, 2006, 9:36 PM
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I say they both have thier benefits, but lead man lead!!! It is good for your lead head and in my opinion it is a very different climb on TR, still fun just different.
In my experience the times I have worked a route on TR were routes where popping off ont e crux would mean a dangerous fall, i.e. decking or 20-30 ft whipper on slab. Other than that i enjoy working routes on lead.
I maybe full of bull*&^#, because i don't climb with any one who can ropegun for me, but at times i reall wish i did. And in which case i would TR more.
But good luck and just have agood time the routes will go for you either way.
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labrat0065
May 6, 2006, 9:46 PM
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RRG ethic, at least when i lived there was it needs to be sent and worked on lead, people projected rotes, thats why they leave draws hanging, its legit for a friend to hang the draws for you, but if you think you should be on the route, you need to be leading it. everyone else is just a tourist.
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scrapper
May 6, 2006, 10:56 PM
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Safety is job one. Protect the route in a safe way. The next goal is efficiency.
When projecting, use whatever protection techniques make learning the moves easiest. This includes TRing, leading, boulder pads, and any other techniques that facilitate you learning the movement you will need to send.
When sending, use whatever protection techniques make sending easiest. Any concerns about the feat of using protection are part of sport clipping, not sport climbing.
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watchme
May 7, 2006, 1:03 AM
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It just depends. The cool thing about sport climbing is that, as long as you lead it from the ground up with maybe the first bolt clipped you've redpointed it. Choose whatever process you want to work it. After all, the process is what matters. You'll learn much by working on routes that are much harder than your current on-sight level, either on lead or TR.
There is a route I've been working on for awhile where my routine is to lead an easier route that shares anchors with my project as a warmup, then I work it on toprope. This route is hard enough for me that I've needed to figure out the best clipping stances, and this is best done on this route on toprope. As it stands, I've just barely been able to climb it on TR. I want to lead it because, well, those are the rules I play by. I don't feel I've redpointed it until I've lead it.
Enjoy. Working routes is great fun.
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watchme
May 7, 2006, 1:11 AM
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It just depends. The cool thing about sport climbing is that, as long as you lead it from the ground up with maybe the first bolt clipped you've redpointed it. Choose whatever process you want to work it. After all, the process is what matters. You'll learn much by working on routes that are much harder than your current on-sight level, either on lead or TR.
There is a route I've been working on for awhile where my routine is to lead an easier route that shares anchors with my project as a warmup, then I work it on toprope. This route is hard enough for me that I've needed to figure out the best clipping stances, and this is best done on this route on toprope. As it stands, I've just barely been able to climb it on TR. I want to lead it because, well, those are the rules I play by. I don't feel I've redpointed it until I've lead it.
Enjoy. Working routes is great fun.
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fuzzbait
May 7, 2006, 5:10 AM
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The advice you have been given by everybody here so far is fantastic.
As you can see both (plus following) have their advantages.
From personal experience when I first started getting into leading I would always top rope the route first before leading it. I did this for awhile before getting over my fear of "falling". Once I took a few good whippers and realized it wasn't that bad I never went back to top roping. I think it is just a matter of time before you feel comfortable enough to transit into leading full time on most all routes.
As others pointed out though there are always exceptions, safety first.
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slablizard
May 10, 2006, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: In my experience it is almost always easier to work routes on lead than it is to do so on TR.
agree...but it depends on the route. At Jailhouse (very overhung) yes. But try Diablo's Dinosaur....very delicate and technical 11d ( more 12ish) face climb, it's hard and runout, TR is necessary just to find the clipping stances.
In reply to: Toprope-rehearsed leading is also quite strange because if you successfully do the route on toprope, what's the point of leading it? You've already linked all the moves---is clipping really that important to you? If so, maybe you're more of a sport clipper than a sport climber.
hm...so sending a route is actually sport-clipping? Now that's something new. Why leading at all then? Unless you're a sport-faller? :D
The point of leading it is that the "fall factor" (mental difficulty) and the "clipping factor" (more locks, therefore more moves) make the route what it is.
TR a 12b is not as hard as leading it. Don't you agree?
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slablizard
May 10, 2006, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: In my experience it is almost always easier to work routes on lead than it is to do so on TR.
agree...but it depends on the route. At Jailhouse (very overhung) yes. But try Diablo's Dinosaur....very delicate and technical 11d ( more 12ish) face climb, it's hard and runout, TR is necessary just to find the clipping stances.
In reply to: Toprope-rehearsed leading is also quite strange because if you successfully do the route on toprope, what's the point of leading it? You've already linked all the moves---is clipping really that important to you? If so, maybe you're more of a sport clipper than a sport climber.
hm...so sending a route is actually sport-clipping? Now that's something new. Why leading at all then? Unless you're a sport-faller? :D
The point of leading it is that the "fall factor" (mental difficulty) and the "clipping factor" (more locks, therefore more moves) make the route what it is.
TR a 12b is not as hard as leading it. Don't you agree?
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fracture
May 10, 2006, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Toprope-rehearsed leading is also quite strange because if you successfully do the route on toprope, what's the point of leading it? You've already linked all the moves---is clipping really that important to you? If so, maybe you're more of a sport clipper than a sport climber. hm...so sending a route is actually sport-clipping? Now that's something new. Why leading at all then? Unless you're a sport-faller? :D
You lead because (and when) it is easier.
In reply to: The point of leading it is that the "fall factor" (mental difficulty) ...
If standard sport falls make you scared and add "mental difficulty", you cannot possibly accurately evaluate the relative difficulty of toproping vs. leading. You probably need to work on desensitizing yourself to irrational fears of falling.
The best thing for you may be to just stop toproping completely---certainly stop toprope-rehearsing leads---until you get over all that stuff.
In reply to: ... and the "clipping factor" (more locks, therefore more moves) make the route what it is.
More locks? I don't usually lock off to clip (probably because I'm not scared of leading). Actually, for that matter, I don't usually lock off very often at all.
Many clips are at positions where you would want to shake an arm anyway, and in those cases they do not cost any energy. I find hard clips (that cannot be avoided by skipping them or stick-clipping them) to be very rare.
But more importantly, who cares if it is harder? It is like hanging your draws vs. having them in place---even in the cases where it makes a significant difference, the difference has nothing to do with the difficulty of the actual climbing.
If you really think doing "more locks" to clip is harder in a valuable way, why not just count to 5 locked off on every hold?
In reply to: TR a 12b is not as hard as leading it. Don't you agree?
No, I think TR'ing a 12b is usually harder than leading (perhaps with some bolts pre-clipped). If it feels easier to you, you might just be scared of leading.
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slablizard
May 10, 2006, 11:32 PM
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In reply to: You lead because (and when) it is easier.
Wrong, I lead because I like it. If you are working a route it might "feel"easier after a few tries on TR because you know the moves. The route itself doesn't get any easier.
In reply to: The point of leading it is that the "fall factor" (mental difficulty) If standard sport falls make you scared and add "mental difficulty", you cannot possibly accurately evaluate the relative difficulty of toproping vs. leading. You probably need to work on desensitizing yourself to irrational fears of falling....
I think I did that in 1987, 3 years after i started climbing during a one of many trips in Verdon. Ever been there?
In reply to: ... The best thing for you may be to just stop toproping completely---certainly stop toprope-rehearsing leads---until you get over all that stuff.
loll you're a funny guy. How old are you again ? BTW I rarely reharse on lead, I was answering the guy's post.
In reply to: ... and the "clipping factor" (more locks, therefore more moves) make the route what it is. More locks? I don't usually lock off to clip (probably because I'm not scared of leading). Actually, for that matter, I don't usually lock off very often at all. Many clips are at positions where you would want to shake an arm anyway, and in those cases they do not cost any energy. I find hard clips (that cannot be avoided by skipping them or stick-clipping them) to be very rare. But more importantly, who cares if it is harder? It is like hanging your draws vs. having them in place---even in the cases where it makes a significant difference, the difference has nothing to do with the difficulty of the actual climbing. If you really think doing "more locks" to clip is harder in a valuable way, why not just count to 5 locked off on every hold?
well not all routes are bolted to perfection, some do have scary/dangerous/marginal clipping stances. Strange that with all the experience you claim (in writing) you never happened to climb a route without "hard clips" unless you stick with 10a's...do you?"
Hanging your draws or not, makes a diference. To be precise bethween redpoint or pinkpoint, and it does has to do with the difficulty of a climb, the subjective difficulty, not the grade.
try to lock on a 1 cm crimp for 3 seconds, and try the same for 8 seconds, multiply for let's say 12 clips.. does that make andy difference to you?
In reply to: TR a 12b is not as hard as leading it. Don't you agree?
No, I think TR'ing a 12b is usually harder than leading (perhaps with some bolts pre-clipped). If it feels easier to you, you might just be scared of leading.
LOL!
Ok now Leading it's easier than Top Roping...that's a good one dude. Makes me think that you have a lot of experience...in therory :roll:
see ya.
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fracture
May 11, 2006, 2:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You lead because (and when) it is easier. Wrong, I lead because I like it. If you are working a route it might "feel"easier after a few tries on TR because you know the moves. The route itself doesn't get any easier.
I don't work routes on TR. The above is the reason that I generally lead (when working moves and when trying to link them). If you enjoy or like clipping for its own sake, more power to you.
In reply to: In reply to: ... The best thing for you may be to just stop toproping completely---certainly stop toprope-rehearsing leads---until you get over all that stuff. loll you're a funny guy. How old are you again ? BTW I rarely reharse on lead, I was answering the guy's post.
Do you mean you rarely rehearse on toprope? If you really mean you rarely rehearse on lead, it's quite apparent you are scared of falling.
In reply to: well not all routes are bolted to perfection, some do have scary/dangerous/marginal clipping stances. Strange that with all the experience you claim (in writing) you never happened to climb a route without "hard clips" unless you stick with 10a's...do you?"
No; I climb 5.13.
On the vast majority of routes with so-called "hard clips", intelligent tactics will allow you to avoid them. You can nearly always either skip the clip, stick clip it, extend the draw, clip late, clip early, etc. If you find yourself doing a lot of hard and desperate clips---especially if you often find yourself doing it from locked off positions (as you suggested earlier)---you may need to work on making your redpoint tactics more efficient.
In reply to: Hanging your draws or not, makes a diference. To be precise bethween redpoint or pinkpoint, and it does has to do with the difficulty of a climb, the subjective difficulty, not the grade.
It does not make a difference that is worth anything; except to sport clippers, that is.
In reply to: Ok now Leading it's easier than Top Roping...that's a good one dude. Makes me think that you have a lot of experience...in therory :roll:
I've never claimed to be a particularly experienced sport climber. But if you think toproping is easier than leading (especially if we are talking about working moves), I promise that you aren't either.
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slablizard
May 11, 2006, 5:01 PM
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Dude, I've been climbing for nearly 20 years and I still don't come out telling people what to do. You need to work on your attitude.
I'm not scared of falling and I lead more than I TR, and what the hell is a sport clipper? I'm syure you're not as experienced as you'll like to. TR it's easier just only for the fact that you don't have rope drag, draws ( or rack ) and you don't have to stop to clip. ASk around here let's see what's the general opinion.
Capish?
Have a nice day.
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jt512
May 11, 2006, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: But if you think toproping is easier than leading (especially if we are talking about working moves), I promise that you aren't either.
I think that this is more route dependent than you're making it out to be. In fact, I would say that in general leading is harder than TRing because you have to hang on longer to clip. Of course there are routes that are a pain to TR, or that can even be dangerous to TR. On steep routes you often have to unclip anyway; and the toprope gets in your face, gets in the way of moves, and can feel like it's pulling you off the route.
As far as working routes, again, I think whether TRing or leading is more efficient is route and situation dependent. In general, the steeper the route, the more efficient it is to work on lead. But there are other considerations. Say I'm working out a move just below a bolt that has hard moves leading up to it. I'm going to clip the bolt above the move to work it on toprope, rather than repeatedly falling on the move and exhausting myself by having to repeatedly climb through the hard section just to get to the move I want to work on.
Jay
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fracture
May 11, 2006, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: Dude, I've been climbing for nearly 20 years and I still don't come out telling people what to do. You need to work on your attitude.
I'm telling people what's easier---they (i.e. you) can (and will) do whatever they want to do.
In reply to: I'm syure you're not as experienced as you'll like to.
Best sentence ever.
In reply to: TR it's easier just only for the fact that you don't have rope drag, draws ( or rack ) and you don't have to stop to clip.
Yeah, you just have to stop and unclip instead. And if you fall, you just end up dangling out in space instead of sitting right next to wall where you can practice the moves.
And what are you talking about "draws"? Don't you know you are supposed to have them hanging on the route already? 20-years and you still haven't figured that out? :roll:
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fracture
May 12, 2006, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But if you think toproping is easier than leading (especially if we are talking about working moves), I promise that you aren't either. I think that this is more route dependent than you're making it out to be. In fact, I would say that in general leading is harder than TRing because you have to hang on longer to clip. Of course there are routes that are a pain to TR, or that can even be dangerous to TR. On steep routes you often have to unclip anyway; and the toprope gets in your face, gets in the way of moves, and can feel like it's pulling you off the route.
True, I admit I am primarily talking about severely overhanging (or traversing) routes, and that that's mostly what I climb.
However, a couple points.
First, even on dead vertical, non-traversing terrain, you need to get the rope set up somehow in order to TR. At many crags, it is infeasible (or very inconvenient) to hike around to the top of the cliff to accomplish this, and it is similarly inconvenient to always need to find someone to put up a rope for you.
Also, on many of the non-traversing vertical routes I have climbed it really just doesn't matter whether you are leading or not or whether you are hanging your draws or not. The difference is just not significant enough. Obviously in those circumstances, the vastly increased convenience of leading is a potential reason to prefer it in many situations.
Secondly, and more importantly, even if we agree it is actually more difficult in some situations (and I agree it is), that does not mean that it is difficult in a way that is valuable. Hanging your draws is sometimes more difficult than having them already hanging, but that doesn't mean it is or should be a particularly valuable or worthwhile dimension of the sport. In the rare case where a route truly is both easier and more convenient to toprope than to lead, I would suggest that leading is simply stupid tactics, and the reason that people do so is due to the archaic remnants of a dying neo-religious and incoherent set of so-called "ethics". The axiomatic "value" placed on a lead ascent really arises out of a historical accident, not from a rational and well thought-out formulation of the sport.
In reply to: As far as working routes, again, I think whether TRing or leading is more efficient is route and situation dependent. In general, the steeper the route, the more efficient it is to work on lead. But there are other considerations. Say I'm working out a move just below a bolt that has hard moves leading up to it. I'm going to clip the bolt above the move to work it on toprope, rather than repeatedly falling on the move and exhausting myself by having to repeatedly climb through the hard section just to get to the move I want to work on.
I couldn't agree more with your example, and I do this frequently. Often, when I cannot reach the next draw, I will clip into a bolt and lasso the next clip and then pull up so I can feel holds or work the section "in reverse" and sit right in front of the moves. Other times (e.g. if the draw isn't in yet), I will even haul up a stick clip to put the rope above me. I consider these sorts of things all part of the bag of tricks available when working routes "on lead", though you would be right that it is really selective toproping of appropriate sections.
Anyway, what I am really advocating for here is rational evaluation of efficient tactics in sport climbing, without nonsensical appeals to strange values like "ground up" or an intrinsic value of leading or clipping or hanging draws, or references to completely arbitrary rules such as "stick-clipping is allowed up to N bolts only".
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squierbypetzl
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May 12, 2006, 5:54 AM
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Wow, I donīt think Iīve ever disagreed so much with a single person in a single thread. Itīs almost 1am and Iīm already a bit hung over, so Iīll just argue one of your (fracture) "points".
In reply to: But more importantly, who cares if it is harder? It is like hanging your draws vs. having them in place---even in the cases where it makes a significant difference, the difference has nothing to do with the difficulty of the actual climbing.
Ok, granted it may not have anything to do with the difficulty of the actual climbing moves, placing draws as you go can most definitely increase the difficulty of linking a climb.
In reply to: No, I think TR'ing a 12b is usually harder than leading (perhaps with some bolts pre-clipped). If it feels easier to you, you might just be scared of leading.
Now this is either bad sarcasm or total bullshit.
First off, head games are a part of climbing, get off your high horse.
Secondly, itīs physically provable that leading a route is harder (if only marginally) than TRīing it. Since you refuse to accept that head games play a part in leading a route, letīs focus on the more obvious stuff: like the weight of the draws and the rope, which alone add a disadvantage vs a tr ascent.
In reply to: Yeah, you just have to stop and unclip instead. And if you fall, you just end up dangling out in space instead of sitting right next to wall where you can practice the moves. And what are you talking about "draws"? Don't you know you are supposed to have them hanging on the route already? 20-years and you still haven't figured that out?
Not every climb in the world is overhanging, man.
See, heīs talking about a red-point, which is a "better" styled ascent than the pink-points you seem to be describing. All the posts youīve made in this thread and you still havenīt figured this out?
disclaimer: havenīt finished reading thread (read: boring), so just forget about it if any of this has already been mentioned/corrected.
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yanqui
May 12, 2006, 2:24 PM
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In reply to: when it comes to working sport routes and getting stronger, what have you guys and gals found most effective. top-roping until you feel comfortable/strong enough to red point, or leading it every time, even if that means bolt to bolt climbing with hangs at times until i red point. .... i've been leading sport for 1.5ish years, but only this spring climbing outside consitantly (1-3 times/wk) and just started feeling comfortable leading mid .10s in the Red River Gorge.
Like mostly of the reasonable posters said, whether you can top-rope or not often depends on the route. If you're just trying to break into 5.11s, then probably most routes you wanna try can be safely top-roped, especially when the rope is 'black-clipped' (is this the correct terminology?). Although I've never personally climbed in RRG or anywhere else in the eastern US, so I can't help you there.
Having watched literally dozens of climbers break into the 5.11 grade, I can honestly say that what is better depends alot on how nervous a leader you are. Most climbers I've personally seen break the 5.11 barrier needed some time and practice top-roping 5.11s before they had the self confidence to lead at that grade. Their main barrier involved a sort of lack of confidence (or perhaps a lack of understanding) about what they really could do. If you're comfortably leading mid 5.10, then you're right there, ready to go for it. If whippers make you nervous and don't help you relax, maybe you should top-rope awhile, if the routes allow it. If not, then try things on lead (as long as this seems safe enough to you). It's kind of a personal thing and there's no fixed rule.
I also like JT512's comment about working a hard crux move (by top-roping from the next higher bolt), although I'm not sure this applies so much to someone just breaking into the 5.11 grade. If I'm stuck on a crux, after a few whippers, I often 'cheat' my way up, clip the next bolt, look things over carefully, then lower down and work the route from there (of course this 'cheating' may be difficult or even impossible if the crux is somewhat runout). This form of cheating is a much more efficient way for me to learn a hard crux. Plus, I'm not a big fan of taking lots of whippers.
The important things are
1) Do what is safe
and ....
2) Try to figure out what works best for you.
Don't let a bunch heroes pressure you into doing something that you know is wrong for you. It'll only slow the learning process and take perhaps the joy out of your climbing.
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fracture
May 12, 2006, 2:50 PM
Post #25 of 94
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
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In reply to: First off, head games are a part of climbing, get off your high horse.
If you are scared or climb with increased hesitation when you lead sport routes, you will very likely over-value the difficulty of the so-called "head games" involved.
I assue you, it is quite possible (and not difficult) to do sport leads with the same frame of mind that you have on toprope. If you aren't at this point in your climbing, you cannot possibly contribute to this discussion in any meaningful way, because you don't really understand what is being discussed.
The real "head games" in sport climbing have to do with staying calm and focused while you are pumped, having confidence in yourself, knowing that you worked the ending moves well enough to not blow it, avoiding non-positive forms of frustration when you can't figure out a move or link a sequence---things of that nature. Despite what many climbers would like to believe, this is not fundamentally different from the sort of "head games" that people who golf (or play almost any other sport) seriously have to deal with.
In reply to: See, heīs talking about a red-point, which is a "better" styled ascent than the pink-points you seem to be describing. All the posts youīve made in this thread and you still havenīt figured this out?
"Pinkpoint"? Silly sport clipper. :roll:
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