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jt512
Aug 24, 2002, 10:05 PM
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Metolius, if the slot of the ATC is oriented vertically, as it should be, then when you lower your partner the rope going up to him should come out of the top of the slot, and you should hold the brake side of the rope down in front of you so that it comes out of the opposite end of the slot. If either strand of the rope runs over one of the long sides of the slot, then the rope gets kinked.
-Jay
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tradguy
Aug 26, 2002, 12:34 AM
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jt512:
How is it incorrect to belay from the hardpoints of the harness instead of the belay loop? I personally think it's BETTER to belay from the hardpoints. Here's why:
1.) In accordance with the point you were trying to make, belaying from the hardpoints allows you to lock off by bringing the brake hand against (or behind) the hip, instead of down between the legs below the belay device. Not only is the hip a stronger, more natural position to hold the rope with your arm, but the rope across your hip and upper thigh adds more friction to the system, making it even easier to hold.
2.) Using the belay loop ads one more link in the system that has the potential to fail. Plus, the belay loop is NOT redundant. If it goes, you're f*cked. Same reason people are taught to tie in to the hardpoints instead of the belay loop.
3.) When you are finished belaying and pull the rope from the device, if you clip it back into the biner and let it hang from the belay loop, it will bang against your nuts when you walk around - not especially comfortable, I've found. Yes, you can unclip the biner from the belay loop and clip it to one of your gear loops, but whenever you do this you risk dropping it, and if you are working on a multipitch route or happen to be in an exposed location, that could be really bad.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-26 05:00 ]
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jt512
Aug 26, 2002, 4:22 PM
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Quote:How is it incorrect to belay from the hardpoints of the harness instead of the belay loop.
Biners are designed to be loaded along their long axis only. The belay loop, I say again, belay loop, is there to insure that that is how the biner gets loaded. Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.
Additionally, the belay loop keeps the belay device in its proper orientation: the slot is vertical, not horizontal, so the rope doesn't twist as it passes thru the device.
Quote:1.) In accordance with the point you were trying to make, belaying from the hardpoints allows you to lock off by bringing the brake hand against (or behind) the hip...
That's how you lock off when the belay device is attached to the belay loop, as well.
Quote:instead of down between the legs below the belay device.
That's how you lower, not how you lock off.
Quote:2.) Using the belay loop ads one more link in the system that has the potential to fail.
The probability that a belay loop that is in good condition will fail is virtually zero, whereas the potential for a cross-loaded biner to fail is a real risk.
Quote:Plus, the belay loop is NOT redundant.
Belaying through the tie-in points adds redundancy at the price of increased risk of failure, which makes no sense. If you want redundancy tie a second belay loop onto your harness. Also, belay with two carabiners, climb on two ropes, using, of course, two belayers.
-Jay
(Edited to add subliminal messages about what a belay loop is for.)
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 09:26 ]
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dovaka
Aug 26, 2002, 4:44 PM
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i have a atc a gri gri and a figure 8 i primarilly use the gri gri for belay and the atc to rap with if i have to and the figure 8 is juse there as stand by since i never know when i may need it
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howitzer
Aug 26, 2002, 5:00 PM
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I use the ATC all the way! Good explanation about usage, JT - considering the belay loop is the STRONGEST part of the harness, and the instructions on your harness tell you to use it for that purpose... it's the way to go!
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dustinap
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Aug 26, 2002, 5:09 PM
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The hardpoints on your harness have 2 loops, but loads the carabiner in a way it is not designed to be loaded.
The belay loop loads the carabiner in the way it is meant to be loaded. Belay loops are safer IMHO. If you tie in with a figure eight which most climbers do, you can clip the locker thru both the belay loop, and the bight on the figure eight that goes thru your harness. You now have a redundant setup.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-08-26 10:12 ]
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aarong
Aug 26, 2002, 5:19 PM
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I really like the Reverso the best. It belays really smooth, easy to use on rappel and perfect for belaying seconds.
It's more durable than anything with a wire, too.
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coldclimb
Aug 26, 2002, 5:48 PM
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I say ATC, but I'm gonna have to try one of them reversos.
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tradguy
Aug 26, 2002, 6:04 PM
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JT512,
While I worry that we may be getting dangerously close to off topic, I feel compelled to counter on a few points:
Quote:Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.
I disagree. If the biner is in a vertical orientation, with the rope and belay device on top, the biner will be loaded along it's MAJOR axis (force parallel to the spine), not it's minor (perpendicular to the spine), when the rope pulls UP, as it should if a properly belayed climber takes a fall. This does assume, of course, that you are using a proper belay biner (ie large radius curves).
Quote:Additionally, the belay loop keeps the belay device in its proper orientation: the slot is vertical, not horizontal, so the rope doesn't twist as it passes thru the device
Again, I disagree. With the slot "vertical" (ie perpendicular to the wall and your chest), if you lock off the rope to your hip, it will curl across the side of the ATC, rather than over the end, and twist the rope. This does not happen with the ATC slots "horizontal" (ie parallel to the wall and your chest), where the rope runs an S shape through the device. I wish I had some pictures to show you what I mean, because I worry that my descriptions might be mis-interpretted.
Quote:Belaying through the tie-in points adds redundancy at the price of increased risk of failure...
I disagree again on yet another point. I've been climbing for nearly 10 years, and have never had problems cross-loading my belay biner. I won't say it's impossible, but I don't think it is any more likely to get cross-loaded in my setup than if it is attached to the belay loop. In both cases, it is up to the user to ensure it is rigged properly and stays that way during use.
Quote:(Edited to add subliminal messages about what a belay loop is for.)
I assume, then, you don't rappell from your belay loop??
Joe
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-26 11:07 ]
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climbingboulder
Aug 26, 2002, 6:15 PM
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I had an ATC for 7 years, and it worked fine and I was perfectly happy with it, until I got a B-52. Think better friction, smoother action, same weight. Think no thumb sprains with ratty 11mm ropes trying to get them through, and I'm psyched to try it with nice frozen ropes too.
Oh yeah, autoblocking?
My full report is at http://www.climbingboulder.com/resources/features/gear_reviews/trango_b_52.html
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rockjock04
Aug 26, 2002, 6:24 PM
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I have an Air Traffic Controller and Love it. Sadly thats only being compared to using the figure eight, (in which was set up to belay in the rappel position ).
I hear alot of good stuff about this petzl reverso. Does anyone know a site I can check out to see how it works? How its rigged etc.?
Is the auto locking feature usable in belaying a top rope?
Perhaps I will ask for it for my birthday in cold cold november.
peace out
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woodse
Aug 26, 2002, 6:51 PM
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The Reverso is definitely my weapon of choice. Large opening makes feeding out and taking in rope a breeze. Locks off easily. Can belay when using double ropes. Auto-locking when bringing up the second. Can be used to ascend ropes in emergency situations. It is the best ever!!!
woodsE-Proud owner of 2 Reverso Belay Devices!
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jono
Aug 26, 2002, 7:09 PM
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ATC
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mountainmonkey
Aug 26, 2002, 7:26 PM
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The reverso is great but many people waste their money on it. The only advantage it has over the ATC is the autolocking feature (although I am a big fan of the rigid keeper). You will waste your money on it unless you plan to use it to belay seconds using the autolocking feature. Stick with the atc if you only plan to use it for belaying and rapelling.
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waxman
Aug 26, 2002, 7:34 PM
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I'm all about the ATC.
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mitchal
Aug 26, 2002, 8:17 PM
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ATC
And now for something completely different....
Wild Country Single Rope Controller. It has a sorta auto locking action and is smooth for lead belaying.It's drawback is the single rope capacity,no rappeling down with this one.'Course the ATC is light enough to carry along for the ride.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Climb Happy
Mitch
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djnibs
Aug 26, 2002, 9:32 PM
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for a good presentation on the reverso, goto:
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/statique/sport/promotion/reverso/reversoflash.html for a flash animation on the reverso.
or goto:
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=ASS#REVERSO
both are from petzl.
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kindredlion
Aug 26, 2002, 9:57 PM
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Ok I just wrote a two page post here...
I hit the back button and well..
I just took the cyber equivalent of a twenty foot whipper - no incident. I am just back near the begining again...
So instead of being as long winded as I was. Which may be difficult considering how much spray I have in me, I will be bulletted and brief.
In most free climbing environmens, the ATC off of the ground is my way. Once at the belay, a Muntner hitch off of the anchor makes things smooth and efficient.
For most Aid situations - The Gri Gri really shines. After pushing yourself on your top setps for a while, a cozy Gri Gri cushioned belay nap is more than a dream on a long day. Meanwhile your leader can still make safe progress, without a bottom anchor and belaying himself.
ISSUE
The Reverso
WHY?
I own one of these little ditty's and well, lets just say its got its early retirement. I remain open to debate of course, but I can't say you'r gonna get through to me.
My Muntner does not 'autolock' sure, but my reverso, does not let me lower my partner.
Is this a valid exchange? I bring out lots of beginners, and well lets just say, lowering is an option I need, I bet I am not alone. There are many ways advertised to enable the device to lower off of the anchor, and I have figured out some "better" ways of my own. My question remains.. WHY?
If I have a device, (or knot for that matter) that will perform all off the same functions as the Reverso, but could lower It would be the Grail of belay devices. For now I think its ridiculous to stunt my options just for the "convenience" of an 'auto lock'. Just to add. The ATC (and most other two slotted tubers) can as well bring up two seconds simultaneously, just not off the anchor, and with a little practice. Just remember there is no 'auto lock'
ISSUE
The Reverso
Experience vs. Technology
Is this another reason for climbers to lax on training, practice, and good habit? Is this another invitation to rely on 'better' technology? Unlike the mechanical Gri Gri, the reverso has no moving parts, and its lock mechanism relies on proper rigging, load, and friction. Mechanically this is a paramount improvement. For the dummy this sucks! So many factors! too much to think about!! Agreed the reverso is not for beginners. But does a beginner buy a belay device because it claims 'autolock'? Or does a beginner buy because of price? If YES is the answer to both of these questions, (I don't know, that's why I ask)neophytes will acquire the reverso.
I agree that knowledge is power.
I will teach about all types of devices, including the reverso. I will not reccomend it to anyone, but a leader of a three man party on double ropes, intending to bring up his seconds simultaneously. (provided he's no dummy)
Ding Ding Ding!
Begin Round 1
Question
Anyone ever use the reverso for roped soloing?
I will fuss (safely) with a clove hitch.
I will cruise with an expensive heavy Gri Gri.
I have never taken an inverted fall on my Gri Gri, and hope I never do. I do feel though that my Gri Gri will catch me.
Does anyone know if there are inverted fall concerns with the reverso?
Could this be the first cheap soloist?
Talk amongst yourselves...
Take Air.
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jt512
Aug 26, 2002, 11:11 PM
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Quote:Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.Quote:
I disagree. If the biner is in a vertical orientation, with the rope and belay device on top, the biner will be loaded along it's MAJOR axis (force parallel to the spine), not it's minor (perpendicular to the spine), when the rope pulls UP...
OK, horizontal then. The point is that with three points of contact the biner is more likely to find a stable orientation with the net force along its minor axis. FWIW, the UIAA agrees with me on this. In the 2000 edition of the Journal of the UIAA, the article, "Wrong Placement of the Belay Karabiner," states: [blockquote]The problem is that if the locking karabiner can't rotate freely, we can't be sure how the karabiner will be loaded. There are 3 main problems with this: 1. Danger of partial or full loading along the minor axis.... 2. Danger of unintntional opening of the karabiner.... 3. Cutting the rope....[/blockquote]
Oh, and they call it an "abseil loop," so I'm ok to rappel on it, too.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 16:14 ]
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tradguy
Aug 27, 2002, 12:12 AM
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Dammit!! You win - pulling out the big guns quoting the UIAA. Though I haven't had this problem personally, I can envision how someone using an improperly shaped biner could potentially have troubles.
I still stand by my statement, though, that my method is better for my future children - getting smacked in the nuts with a gri gri hanging from the belay loop while you're walking really sucks!
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astone
Aug 27, 2002, 12:29 AM
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ATC all the way. The simplest is still the best.
Also, it is easily backed up with a trusty prusik while rappelling. This gives me the option of freeing my hands to untangle the rope from a snag.
BTW anyone who neglects to learn and practice with the prusik knot will someday regret it.
Have Fun, astone
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pir8penguin
Aug 27, 2002, 12:31 AM
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then clip it to a gear loop. i've heard many times the argument that the belay loop is just another link in the chain, but it seems that it's at least as strong as a sen runner, if not stronger. the fact that it promotes a proper orientation would make things safer, if in fact the strength of the belay loop is known to be acceptable.
jt, what should one without a belay loop do? i've yet to see that addressed.
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jt512
Aug 27, 2002, 2:04 AM
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Quote:jt, what should one without a belay loop do? i've yet to see that addressed.
IMO, they should get a new harness.
In the meantime, do not belay or rappel with a figure 8 rappel device. A figure 8 can leverage open a crossloaded carabiner under body weight alone. Although this can happen with or without a belay loop, accident reports suggest that it is more likely to occur when the carabiner is threaded thru the harness tie-in points.
An alternative is to tie in to the rope with a figure 8 knot and belay off the bight of rope formed when you tie in. However, don't do this with a bowline.
Or, continue to belay off the tie-in points, being very careful to monitor the orientation of the biner.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 19:04 ]
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jt512
Aug 27, 2002, 2:08 AM
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Quote:I still stand by my statement, though, that my method is better for my future children - getting smacked in the nuts with a gri gri hanging from the belay loop while you're walking really sucks!
You'll notice that I didn't argue with that point! But, I wouldn't want my belay device hanging in front of me when I climb, even if it weren't banging against my nuts. I clip it to a gear loop when I'm not using it. I've dropped it once. It's no big deal if you know your munter hitch and biner brake rappel.
-Jay
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gakin
Aug 27, 2002, 1:15 PM
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Usually I would say an ATC. I recently purchased a BRD to use in the gym simply because I was curious. While I like using both, in the gym I prefer the BRD. Very simple to use. I think Metoulis did a great job with it, and I've been very pleased, but I do believe that I am going to switch to the Reverso in the near future, escpecially for climbing at the crag.
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