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docburner
Jun 5, 2006, 10:37 PM
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I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for endurance weight training for steep overhanging routes? I would prefer weight training to avoid tendon injury and just do this on off days. I don't think I have a grip strength issue.
Also any ideas to conquer fear of falling on steep overhanging routes? I know its safer then vertical but for some reason it just scares me much more.
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caughtinside
Jun 5, 2006, 10:51 PM
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take some lead falls in the gym. Gym lead routes all seem to be on overhangs, so it should be similar to falling outdoors. Make sure your belayer can give a good dynamic belay, preferably with a grigri.
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mcgivney_nh
Jun 5, 2006, 10:55 PM
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This isn't really weight training, but lead up a route a grade or two below your onsight level, then downlead it, then lead up it, then downlead it, until you fall... This will build up your endurance, and help you get over you fear of falling, because you'll fall eventually, guaranteed. Just remember, under no circumstances are you aloud to come off the wall, if its not by falling.
Good Luck.
-Sean
edited for spelling
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sidepull
Jun 5, 2006, 11:03 PM
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if it's not your hands that are giving out on the steep stuff then what muscle group is it? Lats, biceps, abs, etc?
If it's not a specific muscle group that's giving you problems, you might want to start with Long's Workout From Hell (google it) - it will at least give you some ideas of how to start. If you stick with it, you should see improvements in endurance as well as in your mental ability to cope with the pain from the lactic acid.
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mcgivney_nh
Jun 5, 2006, 11:12 PM
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link for the Workout From Hell, sounds fun if you ask me.
-Sean
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docburner
Jun 5, 2006, 11:12 PM
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I'm just as scared in the gym as outside, I think the things that bother me are: traversing, pulling the roof, free hanging belay, cleaning with no feet holds, pretty much anything where there is nothing under me.
I don't really want to downclimb steep overhang, that seems like a good way to injure my hands.
I don't think there is any specific muscle group I'm having issues with its just that I'm tired. Sometimes my feet slip which might mean I need more core strength.
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docburner
Jun 5, 2006, 11:18 PM
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just read through the workout from hell and it looks like a very good place to start, I'll have to see if i have the dedicating to make it through phase I
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mcgivney_nh
Jun 5, 2006, 11:25 PM
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Just a note that this may not be the prime time for you to do the WFH, there is no way that any mortal would be able to do this as written and continue climbing with any frequency.
-Sean
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angry
Jun 5, 2006, 11:27 PM
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mcgivney gave you the right answer.
You shouldn't injure your hands on a route that is easy for you. I think of the severely overhanging 12's at the gym. Now if they were vertical, they'd be 5.8. That is how big the holds are.
So if you go down a couple grades and climb up and down, you'll be on $50 holds the whole time. Unless you are extremely weak (unlikely) I don't think a string of the best jugs in the gym will hurt you.
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overlord
Jun 6, 2006, 7:03 AM
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get a good training book and read it. the post in the technique and training forum if you have any questions.
what are good books?? horst 'training for climbing', neumann and goddard 'performance rock climbing' and last but definitely not least hague and hunter 'self coached climber' (SCC). the authors of the latter are also rc.com members so you can get really good feedback if you have questions. and its a really good book.
and to answer your question about finger(hang)boards. yes, they do work, especially for power training. you can also use them for power endurance, but i wouldnt do endurance on them. gets boring quickly enough as it is, i cant imagine how it would be if you had to hang for longer periods of time. as for injuries... yes, you can injure yourself really easily if youre not carefull. hangboards are really agressive tools and should be used with a grain of salt.
but the best way to gain endurance is climbing. you didnt say which kind of endurance, so ill basicly answer both.
my fav way of endurance training was climbing pumpy medium length routes (and possibly doing laps on them). but authors of SCC devised a really wicked thing called 4x4. its basicly climbing 4 sets of 4 boulder with short rest inbetween. boulder shouldnt be too hard (you should be JUST ble to complete each set), but you should be REALLY pumped at the end. you can also train power endurance on a hangboard, but i wont get into details now
as for local aerobic endurance, climb lots of easy stuff. the important thing here is to keep climbing for a long period.
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docburner
Jun 6, 2006, 7:11 AM
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Thanks for all the advice. I think the workout from hell might be too tough if I'm going to continue climbing, and I'm going to avoid hangboards as my tendons are all borderline injured.
I climbed today mainly just bouldering on overhanging v3s for an hour or so and I think I discovered that it is my biceps that are probably limiting me the most. I will try to work on biceps along with some of the bouldering suggestions that I read about from all the links, and probably some down climb leads on easy stuff. Also some crunches to get some core strength, my abs are never sore but I think it will probably help. Also I'll check out the book that overlord mentioned.
Thanks for all the advice.
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eastvillage
Jun 6, 2006, 12:19 PM
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Since you are talking overhangs, what better reference than the Gunks.
No matter how overhanging, you have to keep your hands AND feet stuck to the rock at all times. Besides grip and arm strength, this requires very strong core/abdominal muscles and you have to make yourself use them.
You need to visualize yourself climbing them and having fun while doing it.
Come to the Gunks. Overhangs start at 5.2
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buckyllama
Jun 6, 2006, 12:50 PM
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Crossfit.com
This is about the best approach I've found for a general daily workout. It will uncover your weaknesses and it will correct them. Doing the workout of the day (WOD) 3 days on, 1 off as prescribed is a good starting point for almost anything. It will trash you at first, but give it a month or so and you'll adapt and be able to climb and do other training, while still doing the WOD.
I consider the WOD to be my base level trianing. On top of that I add ring excercises once or twice a week (Iron cross progressions, muscleups, roll to support, ring pushups, flys... tons of stuff). Climbing (duh). Some LSD work anywhere from a few times a week to a few times a month (usually cycling). And some extra core work (levers, L-sits, planches). I also try to work in climbing training my modifying a lot of the prescribed excercises in the WOD. Do pullups on the hangboard. instead of a kettlebell or a dumbell for kb swings, I pinch a 35lb plate. use an open hand grip for deadlifts. That sort of thing.
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sidepull
Jun 6, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Doc - it seems like you're really committed to getting advice and finding the best way to improve - that's great. If that's your attitude then I hope you don't mind me providing some constructive feedback:
In reply to: and I'm going to avoid hangboards as my tendons are all borderline injured.
1. Based on the above, I would recommend taking 2-3 weeks off and resting. Do some yoga or some cardio, but let your fingers relax and repair. If you're really committed to training then starting with hurt fingers will only make them more hurt. Again, read Rockprodigy's workout - the point is that training should help you avoid injury.
In reply to: I climbed today mainly just bouldering on overhanging v3s for an hour or so and I think I discovered that it is my biceps that are probably limiting me the most. I will try to work on biceps along with some of the bouldering suggestions that I read about from all the links, and probably some down climb leads on easy stuff.
2. Two points here. A) This sounds like an okay workout. The reason that it is not a great workout is that it's unclear what your goal is and where it fits into a larger training structure. Rockprodigy's workout provides a really nice framework for thinking this through. The Self-Coached Climber would also be great in this respect. The key is to not just throw together the suggestions we're all tossing out here but to really plan out a couple of months of training with clear goals in mind and then follow that plan. So take a bit more time with this. B) The biceps thing sounds a bit odd. I'd have a friend or someone at the gym that you know is a better climber than you watch you climb for ten minutes and then give you advice. If your biceps are giving out it's possible that this is a technique issue. Get feedback from others to help you diagnose your weaknesses.
In reply to: I think the workout from hell might be too tough if I'm going to continue climbing
3. That all depends on point #2 - if you integrate things correctly then depending on your goals this shouldn't really be a problem. Horst's book might help a bit here (How to Climb 5.12) - he talks about having performance days and practice days. The point is that you need to decide before you climb what your goals are. If you're trying to send your next hardest problem every time you go out then you're headed for injury and huge plateaus. If you scale back your performance goals and spend more time building a base of fitness and movement then, in the long run, you'll be better prepared to meet your objectives.
Take everything with a grain of salt, read, integrate, and be creative.
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docburner
Jun 8, 2006, 1:39 AM
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I'm still trying to figure out what workout routine I want to use. My biceps aren't very strong so I'm not very surprised that it is one of the things holding me back. I think my 3 major weaknesses are: arm strength (biceps/triceps/shoulders), cardio fitness (like running and hiking), and core strength. I'm trying to work out a routine to focus on those aspects for a month or two and see where it gets too.
About the fingers, they will hurt after I boulder for a day or so but after that they don't hurt anymore. I took a month off to let them rest and they just hurt worse, so I'm not really sure what to do about them (they also seem to be much more likely to be injured if I take time off)
My preliminary idea of my schedule is:
sat: maybe climb, mostly outside so hiking too, but generally a rest day
sun: climb outside and hike, the majority of this is 10-11 sport, 9-10 trad with maybe 1 hard climb. (Occasionally I'll go somewhere that is all overhanging sport though)
mon: indoor climbing I want to start with 20 minutes of aerobic, lead easy stuff with downclimbing for 2 hours (probably 20 minutes on 20 minutes off), finish with working arms/shoulders/core. ~30 minutes
tue: rest
wed: same as monday but likely more bouldering and tr (depends on who I can get to go)
thur: not sure but probably run and workout
friday: rest
I haven't decided what exercises I want to do yet and one what days. I think my goal is to be in better shape for hiking (the 20 minute hike to the crag is generally more tiring then the rest of the climbing for me), and to have more core and more upper body strength.
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