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ninja_climber
Jun 15, 2006, 10:31 PM
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The guy we climb with, our trainer if you can call him that, has has amazing technique. I learn just by watching him. I swear watching him climb is like watching water flow. He is constantly on his toes, twisting his hips, changing his center of gravity....
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2006, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: The guy we climb with, our trainer if you can call him that, has has amazing technique. I learn just by watching him. I swear watching him climb is like watching water flow. He is constantly on his toes, twisting his hips, changing his center of gravity....
Sounds like you think being on your toes all the time is a good thing.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2006, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: one of the exercises used in my area to teach footwork to teams is quiet climbing. Go to the craftstore, rubberband some jingle bells to your shoes, viola. What ive been told is that i should place my foot quietly (in general, no stomping) and place it well enough that i need not move it. My footwork is notably horrible tho (alot of it just doesnt come nature or flow for me) Quiet feet is a good excersize for developing precision in getting your feet on the best part of a hold efficiently and quickly, but putting bells on your shoes will require you to move your feet very slowly to avoid ringing them. Moving slow and statically is not something you want to be practicing and ingraining in your movement repertoire. On the contrary, when you do the quiet feet excersize, you ideally want to be practicing being both precise and quick with your foot movements. (This may mean you start slow and work up to faster movement.)
This post is moronic.
Sounds like someone wants to practice desperate moves adn maek em an art form or something.
Bah.
I'm willing to be, wihtout even having seen the book, that Fluxus' work is as misunderstood and as misinterpreted as Arno's book.
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jt512
Jun 16, 2006, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: one of the exercises used in my area to teach footwork to teams is quiet climbing. Go to the craftstore, rubberband some jingle bells to your shoes, viola. What ive been told is that i should place my foot quietly (in general, no stomping) and place it well enough that i need not move it. My footwork is notably horrible tho (alot of it just doesnt come nature or flow for me) Quiet feet is a good excersize for developing precision in getting your feet on the best part of a hold efficiently and quickly, but putting bells on your shoes will require you to move your feet very slowly to avoid ringing them. Moving slow and statically is not something you want to be practicing and ingraining in your movement repertoire. On the contrary, when you do the quiet feet excersize, you ideally want to be practicing being both precise and quick with your foot movements. (This may mean you start slow and work up to faster movement.) This post is moronic. Sounds like someone wants to practice desperate moves adn maek em an art form or something. Bah. I'm willing to be, wihtout even having seen the book, that Fluxus' work is as misunderstood and as misinterpreted as Arno's book.
Sorry, Curt, but Fracture is correct. The reason you want to move quickly is simple: the less time you spend on the rock, the less fatigued you become. Thus, you want to climb as quickly as possible without sacrificing precision.
Jay
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pastprime
Jun 16, 2006, 10:01 PM
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There is a saying in car and motorcycle racing, "Work on being smooth, and fast will follow on its own". Different people learn in different ways, but for me, if I move very precisely and with complete focus when I am working on improving, I develop habits of movement and position that gradually require less and less thought to do correctly and precisely, and eventually they happen both without thought; automatically as the situation requires; and very quickly.
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dirtineye
Jun 17, 2006, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: one of the exercises used in my area to teach footwork to teams is quiet climbing. Go to the craftstore, rubberband some jingle bells to your shoes, viola. What ive been told is that i should place my foot quietly (in general, no stomping) and place it well enough that i need not move it. My footwork is notably horrible tho (alot of it just doesnt come nature or flow for me) Quiet feet is a good excersize for developing precision in getting your feet on the best part of a hold efficiently and quickly, but putting bells on your shoes will require you to move your feet very slowly to avoid ringing them. Moving slow and statically is not something you want to be practicing and ingraining in your movement repertoire. On the contrary, when you do the quiet feet excersize, you ideally want to be practicing being both precise and quick with your foot movements. (This may mean you start slow and work up to faster movement.) This post is moronic. Sounds like someone wants to practice desperate moves adn maek em an art form or something. Bah. I'm willing to be, wihtout even having seen the book, that Fluxus' work is as misunderstood and as misinterpreted as Arno's book. Sorry, Curt, but Fracture is correct. The reason you want to move quickly is simple: the less time you spend on the rock, the less fatigued you become. Thus, you want to climb as quickly as possible without sacrificing precision. Jay
NO he is certainly not.
That line if BS is typical sport climber crap, also espooused by punk boudlerers who think you have to keep moving or you wil pump out and fall off.
Bah.
IF you don't have the endurance to climb the way you want to, if you absolutely MUST rush through something or fall off, then you are in over your head.
PERIOD.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2006, 12:45 AM
Post #32 of 52
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: one of the exercises used in my area to teach footwork to teams is quiet climbing. Go to the craftstore, rubberband some jingle bells to your shoes, viola. What ive been told is that i should place my foot quietly (in general, no stomping) and place it well enough that i need not move it. My footwork is notably horrible tho (alot of it just doesnt come nature or flow for me) Quiet feet is a good excersize for developing precision in getting your feet on the best part of a hold efficiently and quickly, but putting bells on your shoes will require you to move your feet very slowly to avoid ringing them. Moving slow and statically is not something you want to be practicing and ingraining in your movement repertoire. On the contrary, when you do the quiet feet excersize, you ideally want to be practicing being both precise and quick with your foot movements. (This may mean you start slow and work up to faster movement.) This post is moronic. Sounds like someone wants to practice desperate moves adn maek em an art form or something. Bah. I'm willing to be, wihtout even having seen the book, that Fluxus' work is as misunderstood and as misinterpreted as Arno's book. Sorry, Curt, but Fracture is correct. The reason you want to move quickly is simple: the less time you spend on the rock, the less fatigued you become. Thus, you want to climb as quickly as possible without sacrificing precision. Jay NO he is certainly not. That line if BS is typical sport climber crap...
You mean "modern climber" crap.
Curt, if you are satisfied by slogging up low-angle 5.7s, that's your business. Fluxus's book is for climbers who want to improve their climbing and move up the grades.
In reply to: ...also espooused by punk boudlerers who think you have to keep moving or you wil pump out and fall off.
Well, yeah, you will. It's bouldering, Curt, not sightseeing.
In reply to: IF you don't have the endurance to climb the way you want to
Who said anything about not having the endurance to climb the way we want to. Who wants to climb slow?
In reply to: if you absolutely MUST rush through something or fall off, then you are in over your head.
Climbing fast is not "rushing through" the climb. It's climbing efficiently. If you pump out because you are climbing too slowly, you're not lacking endurance, you're lacking efficiency. You are only "over your head" in the sense that you don't know the moves well enough to execute them precisely and quickly, and the only way to learn those moves is to get on those "over-your-head" routes and practice the moves. You won't learn 5.13 moves crawling up 5.7 troughs.
Jay
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dirtineye
Jun 17, 2006, 3:26 AM
Post #33 of 52
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It's true, I've done some 5.7.
It's also true that I have my name on some 5.11 + trad, and I have done some 5.12 trad, though not very well.
And it is as overhanging as any stupid sport route could be.
I'll remind you once more that southern sandstone is not known for being low angle.
I said what I meant, and there is no point in talking about it any more, because you have your pet ideas and I have mine, and they don't mesh.
BUt I will say that at my age, if you are not efficient, you don't get up stuff, and I have had more than a few good laughs at those who think that climbing fast is efficient, since I can outclimb many of those people, in my turtle like way.
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sick_climba
Jun 17, 2006, 4:51 AM
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I don't care what any one says... slack lining is a great way to practice balance which is a technique that is VERY IMPORTANT in our chosen sprot. Since I have started I have gained a tremedous amount of blance on the rock. I learned many new tequniqes to me such as foot flagging and even toe to rock ratio (like where on the end of my shoe I get the best blance on certain holds.) So it has nothing to do with strength and like to op said technique and traing is not just for like weight traing or strength training, technique, all thought working hand and hand, is like the complete opposite of brute strength
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jt512
Jun 18, 2006, 12:38 AM
Post #35 of 52
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In reply to: I said what I meant, and there is no point in talking about it any more, because you have your pet ideas and I have mine, and they don't mesh.
Yeah, I have "pet" ideas like the slower you climb, the longer you have to hold onto holds, and therefore, the more energy you expend to perform the same amount of work; thus, you are climbing less efficiently, unless you have a "pet" definition of efficiency that contradicts the physics one.
Jay
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angry
Jun 18, 2006, 1:07 AM
Post #36 of 52
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Curt and Jay, you two need to get a room.
You are both right and you know it.
Sometimes the most efficient way to move is quickly. That doesn't mean running and lunging and flying up a route. It just means get up the thing without fucking around.
Then sometimes the route is all about delicate feet and body position, moving fast would be a recipe for falling.
Sheesh!!!
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cjsimpso
Jun 18, 2006, 1:49 AM
Post #37 of 52
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No no, let Curt and Jay keep going, this is fun to watch.
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jt512
Jun 18, 2006, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: Then sometimes the route is all about delicate feet and body position, moving fast would be a recipe for falling.
Angry (or whatever your name is this month), can you honestly think of a move that would be better to perform slowly, if you could do it faster without loss of precision (which was my thesis). Sure, there are lots of moves that we do better when we do them more slowly, but that, I think, is due to our own limitations.
Jay
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geobum
Jun 18, 2006, 5:08 AM
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In reply to: (which was my thesis)
geez louise
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curt
Jun 18, 2006, 5:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I said what I meant, and there is no point in talking about it any more, because you have your pet ideas and I have mine, and they don't mesh. Yeah, I have "pet" ideas like the slower you climb, the longer you have to hold onto holds, and therefore, the more energy you expend to perform the same amount of work; thus, you are climbing less efficiently.....
Right, so you should never rest, shake out, or do anything else to slow down your upward movement, right? Is that truly your definition of efficient climbing? Irrespective of your answer, that approach certainly doesn't work for me.
Curt
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jt512
Jun 18, 2006, 3:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I said what I meant, and there is no point in talking about it any more, because you have your pet ideas and I have mine, and they don't mesh. Yeah, I have "pet" ideas like the slower you climb, the longer you have to hold onto holds, and therefore, the more energy you expend to perform the same amount of work; thus, you are climbing less efficiently..... Right, so you should never rest, shake out, or do anything else to slow down your upward movement, right? Is that truly your definition of efficient climbing?
No, I'm talking about doing the moves between rests quickly.
Jay
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collegekid
Jun 19, 2006, 2:55 AM
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Can't we all just get along? :D
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dirtineye
Jun 19, 2006, 9:25 AM
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Hey JT, who won that race anyway, was it the tortise or the hare??
HEy JT, is a gas engine more efficient at hgih speed or low speed?
IF I climber moves so quickly he runs out of steam, and winds up out of breath, what would you call that?
My thesis is, sport climbers are neither!
PS, I think Angry likes you, tee-hee!
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jt512
Jun 19, 2006, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: HEy JT, is a gas engine more efficient at hgih speed or low speed?
That analogy fails because gas engines don't have to statically hold holds.
In reply to: IF I climber moves so quickly he runs out of steam, and winds up out of breath, what would you call that?
Pathetic.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 19, 2006, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: HEy JT, is a gas engine more efficient at hgih speed or low speed?
That analogy fails because gas engines don't have to statically hold holds.
In reply to: IF I climber moves so quickly he runs out of steam, and winds up out of breath, what would you call that?
Pathetic.
Jay
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dirtineye
Jun 20, 2006, 12:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: PS, I think Angry likes you, tee-hee! You should know better Curt, I don't like anyone. Dirt, you need to go climb Desert Reality slow and cautious. Tell me how that works out for you. And JT, you need to go climb McCarthy West Fast fast and with no rests. No further arguments will be accepted until you have completed your assignment
IF I get well, and you will take the pictures, you're on.
I've climbed slow and static out a few roof hickeys, Desert Reality looks to be much easier than one little problem I did that had no crack to get a good rest in.
Desert Reality:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=15876
THis guy does not appear to be in a huge hurry. betcha he's able to take the time to place a good piece at the roof edge.
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angry
Jun 20, 2006, 3:41 PM
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Yes and no.
When I climbed it, I stopped twice to place gear. At one point, I grabbed the wrong size cam. It would have been too exhausting to hang out and reach WAY behind me to grab the right size so I just did a couple more moves until it fit.
You definately have a time limit on a cupped hands roof. No matter who you are.
Edited to add: It's so ovehanging that you really aren't concerned about much gear. Get a piece in half way so you don't smack the wall. Everything else is clean air. The lip acts as a directional for the 2nd. Wheee!!
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life_is_good
Jun 22, 2006, 1:58 PM
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For me, Technique Training involves thinking about what I'm doing and how I'm moving and watching other climbers. Footwork and balance are key.
In reply to: A really good book to read on all aspects of training for climbing is "Performance Rock Climbing" by Dale Goddard and Udo Neuman (sp). I'll try to give you the jist of what they had to say on technique training. Basically it comes down to developing engrams
I was reading an article about a pentathlete who couldn't train. They spent the 9 months prior to the Olympic trials watching movies and going over each event in their head. The muscles may not have been en grained with the movements, but the guy's (I think it was a guy) head had rehearsed each movement, and watched films so much, that the muscles responded and he not only made the Olympic team, but placed.
Anyway, as I was reading that article, I thought of the engrams as discussed in the above mentioned book and it all made perfect sense.
The text goes on to discuss how when you're (notice I didn't use the word your ... very different word) trying to learn a new sequence, that you shouldn't do it when you're tired. When you're tried, your technique is going to faulter and if you practice poor technique, you get those movements en grained into your muscle/mind.
So I keep that in mind when I'm at the gym. I'll warm up on something easy, and then work my project a while. When I feel myself starting to struggle more than I know I should be, I get off the route. Then I move on to something I am confident on and reinforce the smooth fluid movements again.
In reply to: climbing is all physics... learn where your center gravity goes and you'll find your technique getting much better. quiet feet helps too.
I agree - foot work and center of gravity. Find your center and shift your body weight over your feet. This often means moving your feet to a different position a couple of times before actually moving UP the wall. I can see where I want my foot to be, but I can't get it there smoothly without a couple of adjustments. I'll place one foot, shift my weight, then move my other foot and shift my weight, then move my 1st foot again, and finally shifting my weight again and stand up.
In reply to: Training Core strength helps a lot with technique.
DEFINITELY. Suck those abs in, pull your core closer to the wall. You're (there is that word again, not your) core strength is what you're using as you shift your weight and center yourself. It keeps your weight over your feet, and thus your feet on the rock.
In reply to: Interesting post, I learned alot of my technique from watching other climbers! To narrow it down I watch climbers who are shorter than myself..I'm 5.5 so the junior climbing team is great to learn from. Also watching women climb or anyone who has smooth flow. Oh and don't forget about the slow(calm) quiet climbers In reply to: The guy we climb with, our trainer if you can call him that, has has amazing technique. I learn just by watching him. I swear watching him climb is like watching water flow. He is constantly on his toes, twisting his hips, changing his center of gravity....
This is where gym climbing is useful - LOTS of people to watch. Watching not only climbers that are better than me, but watching climbers that I am better than. Watch two different people doing the same route and break down what they do differently. I see one guy stomping his way up the wall. He lunges for each hand hold scraping his feet as he goes. Then I watch someone else glide his way up. He'll place his foot, shift his weight, stand and reach the next hold. Then when I'm on the same route I think about who I would rather climb like.
As far as watching people who are shorter than myself - HA - not much chance for that. Even the kids are my height. (5'2") But I do find that it is more helpful for me to watch the shorter people, even if they're taller than me. Watching someone who is 6' move through a sequence doesn't do me a hell of a lot of good.
I don't get much of a chance to watch women climb. But we do climb differently, that much I know. The women who climb really well, aren't at the gym often. The women I see outdoors are the girlfriend and she doesn't climb as strong as the boyfriend. He's teaching her. I would love to go climb outdoors with some of the women that do come to the gym on occasion. One of them is phenomenal.
Technique training is head games. Thinking about what I'm doing.
In reply to: Sometimes the most efficient way to move is quickly. That doesn't mean running and lunging and flying up a route. It just means get up the thing without fucking around. Then sometimes the route is all about delicate feet and body position, moving fast would be a recipe for falling
Yup ... sometimes I'll find myself thinking TOO much about a sequence. I stand there, rather hang there on my arms, trying to think it through. The longer I hang, the more pumped my arms get. Eventually I've got to just GO and move through the sequence. Hopefully I haven't dinked around too long and created too much of a pump.
But what it comes down too, for me, is that when I find myself flailing around like an idiot, is to climb something a grade or two down. Pay attention to my movement and get that fluidity back.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 22, 2006, 3:41 PM
Post #50 of 52
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If you're going to highlight and draw our attention to your grammar, you really should be correct. Try again.
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