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dandruff1138
Jun 17, 2006, 11:45 PM
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Ok, the other day I was checking out a gym and a group of young climbers , using a gri-gri to belay on a top rope, and the climber too the figure eight follow through, pretied, clipped his biner into it, then clipped the biner in the tie-in points on his harness(the biner went through both points), not the belay loop, and I was itching to say something, seemed a bit unsafe, but the gym supervisors was standing next to them watching as he lyed-back a crack. I figured they knew something I didn't, just seemed like clipping in there could put force on the gate of the biner, even though it was a locker. So I questioned my judgement and just figured I am inexperienced and have never seen this before. Was I right in my judgment?
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rhaig
Jun 18, 2006, 12:19 AM
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In reply to: Ok, the other day I was checking out a gym and a group of young climbers , using a gri-gri to belay on a top rope, and the climber too the figure eight follow through, pretied, clipped his biner into it, then clipped the biner in the tie-in points on his harness(the biner went through both points), not the belay loop, and I was itching to say something, seemed a bit unsafe, but the gym supervisors was standing next to them watching as he lyed-back a crack. I figured they knew something I didn't, just seemed like clipping in there could put force on the gate of the biner, even though it was a locker. So I questioned my judgement and just figured I am inexperienced and have never seen this before. Was I right in my judgment?
the instructions for my harness say to clip in or tie in through both points, and use the belay loop just for belaying. If they were using a locker (which yo usay they were) then I wouldn't have questioned it. I also am fairly inexperienced (8 months climbing, all indoors), and won't pass judgement, but will add opinion.
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the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 12:29 AM
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This is a perfectly acceptable practice. You can also tie directly into the harness with a follow-through fig. 8.
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bryanboonern
Jun 18, 2006, 5:32 AM
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I agree with you. I have alway been told not to do this even when belaying because it could tri-load the biner. I have also been told that if you do tie in with a locker, you should use two, opposite and opposed.
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r3l3ntl355
Jun 18, 2006, 6:03 AM
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Correct me if Im wrong but I dont think you need to worry about "tri loading" a biner by using it to tie in both point of your harness. That warning applies more to the so called 3 point "triangle of death" when you are setting up anchors....If you use a big biner like the big green omega lockers then you shouldnt have any pressure on the gate...The wide end will handle the top and bottom belay loop supports while the narrow end is perfect for just about any ATC....
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the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 6:15 AM
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Nope, you're right. Tri-loading would imply that there are forces pulling in multiple directions. Try tying into your harness with a decent sized biner, have your belayer give some tension, and sit on the harness. How many directions is your biner actually recieving force at? 2. one at the rope, one at the harness, going through both points on the harness is more of a backup system, than it is a load-bearing system. But even if it were, the force is still downward for both loops.
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majid_sabet
Jun 18, 2006, 7:03 AM
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It is safe , do not worry
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chalkfree
Jun 18, 2006, 1:06 PM
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It is safe, tying in is just slightly safer and somewhat less worrysome.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 18, 2006, 1:17 PM
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I am going to play devil's advocate and say that it is not safe. Why? Because it's an unnecessary link in the chain, and if it is only one biner, then a potential failure point. With the biner that close to your body and the rope there is a good chance of the locker being unscrewed as you climb. If the belayer is belaying correctly, the rope should be slightly loose, meaning the biner could flip, unscrew, all unknown to the climber.
I know this is standard practice for some gyms, and for some groups, but the only reason for this is speed. I bet I could tie in as fast as most people could clip in. Now, you could probably clip in your whole life and not have a problem, but it is unneccesary and has greater potential for problems then tying in.
Food for thought.
Josh
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the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: It is safe, tying in is just slightly safer and somewhat less worrysome.
Yeah, I would still recommend tying in, unless you're doing short climbs, and switching off between climbers frequently.
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overlord
Jun 18, 2006, 3:47 PM
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hey, it was TR in a gym. theres no way they could load the biner enough to break it.
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jt512
Jun 18, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: This is a perfectly acceptable practice. You can also tie directly into the harness with a follow-through fig. 8.
Words from the expert climber who just bought his first 6 locking carabiners to go with his webbing.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 18, 2006, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: Ok, the other day I was checking out a gym and a group of young climbers , using a gri-gri to belay on a top rope, and the climber too the figure eight follow through, pretied, clipped his biner into it, then clipped the biner in the tie-in points on his harness(the biner went through both points), not the belay loop, and I was itching to say something, seemed a bit unsafe, but the gym supervisors was standing next to them watching as he lyed-back a crack. I figured they knew something I didn't, just seemed like clipping in there could put force on the gate of the biner, even though it was a locker. So I questioned my judgement and just figured I am inexperienced and have never seen this before. Was I right in my judgment?
Some gyms condone this practice, but I don't like it, mainly because the biner can become unlocked. Normally you should just tie in with the rope. If you do clip in, only do it toproping, and use two opposed lockers.
Jay
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nthusiastj
Jun 18, 2006, 5:31 PM
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Welcome to the insurance industries influence on climbing. The gym probably isn't allowed to trust noobs to tie thier own knots. You should always tie in / clip in to two points on your harness.
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c_kryll
Jun 18, 2006, 5:43 PM
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Ok, I just have to add my $.02; If you actually read your harnesses instruction booklet (all new harnesses have them) it will tell you that the tie-in point is both the waist loop and leg loop in the front of your harness, provided you do NOT have a single attachment point harness. The belay/rapell loop is the single strongest point of any harness and should be the clip-in point if you are attaching yourself with a carabiner to the climbing rope.
I read above a statement about the carabiner flipping and unscrewing it'self. True, that can and will happen, so it's ALWAYS safer to direct tie-in with the rope, however you can reduce the potential of this happening if you orient your gate in a down position to begin with, so gravity helps keep it locked or use a triple-twist-lock carabiner, or two carabiners with gates opposed. The belayer should not giving too much slack to allow the carabiner to flip. In a TR situation there shouldn't be that much slack to begin with unless your trying to flip the rope around an obstruction (ie. roof) and in that case it would be wiser to tie-in direct.
Ok, so why don't we use the rope and tie into the belay/rap loop? Well for several reasons, the first being the the other tie in points are usually reinforced with another 'sheath' of material that protects the tie-in points from rope friction and the belay/rap loop does not. More reasons become availible when you get into rescue situations. Besides, that's what the harness manufacturer recomends, and if you use equipment in a way not recommended by the company that company can't be held liable for any untoward accidents. Belay/rapell loops are for carabiners, tie-in points are for ropes. Single-point harnesses are for both.
Clipping in with a carabiner to the climbing rope can be safe and many programs use it. Just understand the risks if you should choose todo this, understand the 'why' behind what your doing.
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dandruff1138
Jun 19, 2006, 1:55 AM
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Ok I was just questioning a practice and have yet to get a straight answer, no biggie, I personally tie in, and I will always tie in. I guess clipping in is great if you don't wanna learn how to tie a figure 8 F-thru but then why climb at all? Also I looked at a "Autobelay" system specs they have at the gym and it says to clip in at the "2 tie-in points" I guess that makes it safe, But I don't use the auto bel;ays anyways. I just wanted to make sure these kids where safe. I guess its better for them to clip-in if they can't knot.
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dandruff1138
Jun 19, 2006, 1:57 AM
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PS> to all those people who claim that the belay loop is so much stronger then the tie in points, the belay loop is only as strong as the tie in points, considering thats what is loops through.
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rgbscan
Jun 19, 2006, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is a perfectly acceptable practice. You can also tie directly into the harness with a follow-through fig. 8. Words from the expert climber who just bought his first 6 locking carabiners to go with his webbing. Jay
LOL, that deserves a trophy. I love inter-thread references... especially *cheeky* ones.
Chris
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majid_sabet
Jun 19, 2006, 5:14 AM
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In reply to: PS> to all those people who claim that the belay loop is so much stronger then the tie in points, the belay loop is only as strong as the tie in points, considering thats what is loops through.
The belay loop is as solid and as stronger as tie in point.
but the whole point to use tie in is to eliminate one more link in between your rope and your harness.
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the_iceman
Jun 19, 2006, 10:01 AM
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Well put Dandruff.
jt512, Why the double post? Is it so you can reach that 10,000 mark? How fitting that the new ranking you get will be. "Post Whore".
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rgbscan
Jun 19, 2006, 11:10 AM
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In reply to: Ok I was just questioning a practice and have yet to get a straight answer, no biggie, I personally tie in, and I will always tie in. I guess clipping in is great if you don't wanna learn how to tie a figure 8 F-thru but then why climb at all? Also I looked at a "Autobelay" system specs they have at the gym and it says to clip in at the "2 tie-in points" I guess that makes it safe, But I don't use the auto bel;ays anyways. I just wanted to make sure these kids where safe. I guess its better for them to clip-in if they can't knot.
FWIW the instructions that came with my harness show that when tying in it is ok to go through both "strong" points or a single tie-in point (depending on harness style), and when clipping in it is ok to go through the belay loop or clip the top point. It makes no mention as to whether this is when climbing or belaying. See diagram on page 2, and text on page 3. Just throwing it out there... here's the link:
http://en.petzl.com/...ADE%20FR7200-C_1.pdf
Chris
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jt512
Jun 19, 2006, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: jt512, Why the double post? Is it so you can reach that 10,000 mark?
You mean, why two posts? Because the importance of informing readers that your opinions are those of a beginner whose knowledge of the sport is dubious merited its own post.
HTH
Jay
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shanz
Jun 19, 2006, 5:29 PM
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:shock: :shock: :shock:
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shanz
Jun 19, 2006, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: jt512, Why the double post? Is it so you can reach that 10,000 mark? You mean, why two posts? Because the importance of informing readers that your opinions are those of a beginner whose knowledge of the sport is dubious merited its own post. HTH Jay
ice bad advice could potentially get someone hurt or worse is what jays trying to say
in case we had to draw it in crayon for ya
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devils_advocate
Jun 19, 2006, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: I am going to play devil's advocate ... Josh
That's what I'm talking about, blue eyes.
::checks user profile::
Oh hey now, wait right there... Josh is it. That's false advertisement. The devil isn't advocating that one.
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