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craicaddict
Jul 4, 2006, 7:15 PM
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Hello all, I wouldn't consider myself a novice climber, although I'm no guide or rockstar either, but I certainly am to this community - this is my first post...please be gentle. I know how to tie a single bowline quite well as I am also a sailor. However, 2 weeks ago a guide showed me an alternative to the traditional rabbit-out-of-the-hole-around-the-tree-back-in-the-hole bowline. It was great because it was super-quick, tight and (seemingly) easy to do. It was interesting because, once tied, the tie-er pulled on the loading end, the knot actually flipped upwards and locked into the shape that we all recognize as the bowline. The method I was shown involved wrapping the end of your rope around the tree (for example) with the terminus in your right hand, making a small upward-facing loop in your left hand, pinching a bight with your right and inserting it up and through the loop (still with me???). Here is where I've forgotten! Can anyone else fill in the gap for me please? I am almost certain that there is just one more procedure to the knot before you load it and it flips upwards...however, I can't remember what that last bit is. I enjoyed learning this knot and am sorry that I've forgotten it so quickly. If anyone could tell me what the scoop is I'd appreciate it. Thanks so much, Brian P.S.- I did do a general search of 'knots' (79 hits I think, nothing relevant) and another search on 'bowline' (24 hits, again, nothing relevant to this alternative tying.) Thanks again all.
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mr-pink
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Jul 4, 2006, 10:23 PM
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This is how I tie my bowlines. Everybody using a bowline should be able to tie it this way. If you're ever in need of tying in with one hand, this is the best solution!
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c_kryll
Jul 4, 2006, 11:21 PM
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I know how to tie the bowline your asking for, but I'm not sure if I can explain it well enough, but I'll try. Maybe pics would work but I'm too lazy today to try. Ok, here goes: pass the rope around the object you are anchoring too...ie, tree, fence post, harness tie-in points etc. This is now the rope end, the other side we'll call the 'standing' end. Take the standing end and make a loop with it so that the end going away from the anchor is on top. (still with me?, I'm not sure I am but here goes some more) take a bite (loop of rope) and pull it under and through your first loop. (Ok now the fun part) Take the rope end and feed it through that bite you just pulled through the first loop, pull on the 'standing' end of the rope farthest away from the anchor and your knot should flip and you now (hopefully if I havn't confused you completly) you have a bowline. Feel free to finish off with whatever method of backing up the bowline you prefer. On second thought, maybe tomorrow I'll try to figure out some pictures to make it a little less confusing. Chris
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flyinglow
Jul 5, 2006, 12:56 AM
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here goes another attempt at explanation: 1) pass the rope around whatever you're anchoring to. 2) make a small loop in the standing end of the line and take a bight from above(toward the standing end, away from your anchor point) and pass it through the loop (forming a slipped overhand in the standing end of the line). 3) pass the tail(free end) through the loop in the slipped overhand. if you're tying a backup you need to pass as much tail through that loop as you need for your backup. 4)to finish it off, grasp the standing line on either side of the knot and pull apart. the knot should flip into standard bowline configuration. 5) back it up. Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters further...
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the_iceman
Jul 5, 2006, 7:11 AM
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I remember a guy teaching me that method in scouts, I still use it. Something about scratching your belly with the rope... :)
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craicaddict
Jul 5, 2006, 1:58 PM
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Thanks everyone for the helpful hints and advice. Chris, if you get the time I'd appreciate having a few pics of your tying version to look at, it sounds like that's the method I'm talking about. Cheers, Brian
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fmd
Jul 5, 2006, 2:26 PM
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If I am reading this right, you are tying the bowline and then running it through it self again which the finishing end will be on top of the loop??? If this is correct, the knot is called a yosemite bowline....The Freedom of the Hills and Bruce Smith book "On Rope" has some pretty good pictures of this bowline. Also, do a search on "animated knots by Grog" and they'll have a set by set on the mostly used climbing, boating, fishing and SAR's knots........................Frank
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steadymatrock
Jul 5, 2006, 2:30 PM
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Another method is a clove hitch bowline. Do a clove hitch for the rabbit hole of the bowline. Try
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dirtineye
Jul 6, 2006, 10:47 PM
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Interesting. There is a problem though.
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moggs
Jul 6, 2006, 11:15 PM
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hey CK, In step 4, if you pass the end through the bite in the opposite direction (so it's heading back towards the chair) you can get it to end up on the inside of the bowline loop, where it belongs. -moggs.
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slablizard
Jul 6, 2006, 11:37 PM
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That's how I do it! then you can retrace the whole knot like you do with a "8" ending up with 2 strains going trough your harness and the tail back up aligned with the main rope...ready for a stopper knot. Bomber and easy to untie after whips. If you're really good you can do it one handed. minus the reatracing part. Step five: pull the tail and the standing end away from each other, the knot should flip into a bowline http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=75491 Hope this helps Chris
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 12:34 AM
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that's two who don't and one who does know a bowline when they see it. The thing in the pic is NOT a bowline...
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slablizard
Jul 7, 2006, 12:38 AM
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lol! Then I climbetd 20 years on a non-bowline. Maybe the oic makes it look weird ...believe me it is.
In reply to: that's two who don't and one who does know a bowline when they see it. The thing in the pic is NOT a bowline...
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: lol! Then I climbetd 20 years on a non-bowline. Maybe the oic makes it look weird ...believe me it is. In reply to: that's two who don't and one who does know a bowline when they see it. The thing in the pic is NOT a bowline... NO, the thing in the pic is NOT a bowline, period. One other person noticed this already as well, it is clearly NOT a bowline. You have indeed been screwing up royally because what is in the picture is NOT good. I believe you can find something on the internet about the perils of tying a non-bowline this way, but you will have to do that yourself.
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sbaclimber
Jul 7, 2006, 1:30 AM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=75565 Also NOT a bowline (it is a Dutch Marine or Left Handed Bowline, on a bight)! I was not aware of this, thanks for pointing it out, dirtineye and moggs. Now I am off to find out why :wink: Edit: why it is potentially dangerous, not why it isn't a bowline, I got that part.
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c_kryll
Jul 7, 2006, 1:44 AM
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Geee...I can't wait to see how this one turns out. Someone better inform the AMGA that one of their way's of teaching a bowline is incorrect before someone gets hurt. I'm curious if anyone has actually tied the knot pictured and looked at it and then compared it to another, um "Correct" bowline. Other then the possibility of the tail being on the inside or outside I havn't seen a difference. Chris
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fmd
Jul 7, 2006, 1:48 AM
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Hey, I just seen another thread with this same knot???? I think it was posted yesterday........I had seen the double bowlines, yosemite bowlines and bowline on a bight. I even dusted off some of my books and looked up the bowlines in the Freedom of the Hills, ON ROPE, Knots for climber (Duane Raleigh) , Self Rescue (David Fasulo) and my AMGA papers and nothing in any of these on this knot.........PLEASE, show me where I can find this knot in any climbing books........I agree with dirtineye that this isnt even a bowline. I wouldnt climb on it...........Frank
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sbaclimber
Jul 7, 2006, 1:57 AM
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In reply to: Hey, I just seen another thread with this same knot???? I think it was posted yesterday........I had seen the double bowlines, yosemite bowlines and bowline on a bight. I even dusted off some of my books and looked up the bowlines in the Freedom of the Hills, ON ROPE, Knots for climber (Duane Raleigh) , Self Rescue (David Fasulo) and my AMGA papers and nothing in any of these on this knot.........PLEASE, show me where I can find this knot in any climbing books........I agree with dirtineye that this isnt even a bowline. I wouldnt climb on it...........Frank According to Grog, it is a Dutch Marine or Left Handed Bowline, and it isn't unsafe.... The VPI Cave Club, claim it is just as strong, but do mention a (sort of) plausible reason for not using it.
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fmd
Jul 7, 2006, 2:31 AM
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According to Grog, it is a Dutch Marine or Left Handed Bowline, and it isn't unsafe.... The VPI Cave Club, claim it is just as strong, but do mention a (sort of) plausible reason for not using it. Is this a sailing knot.?? Grog said that the Dutch navy said it is a satisfactory knot. I was never in the Dutch navy, but I wonder if they climb on thier boats....uh uh...I meant to say ships. And if VPI mentions a "sort of" plausible reason for not using it, Why use it if they dont recommend the knot???
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sbaclimber
Jul 7, 2006, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: And if VPI mentions a "sort of" plausible reason for not using it, Why use it if they dont recommend the knot??? I wouldn't use it because it isn't 'proper', but that is just symantics. Their "sort of" plausible reason wouldn't apply if you back up the knot, which is recommended anyway....
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 3:02 AM
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In reply to: Geee...I can't wait to see how this one turns out. Someone better inform the AMGA that one of their way's of teaching a bowline is incorrect before someone gets hurt. I'm curious if anyone has actually tied the knot pictured and looked at it and then compared it to another, um "Correct" bowline. Other then the possibility of the tail being on the inside or outside I havn't seen a difference. Chris I doubt the AMGA teaches it as in the pictures, and Moggs alreayd tols you hwo to get a real bowline out of that procedure, so... Keep your mouth shut maybe??? And if you think it is OK for the tail to be on the outside as opposed to the inside, you just plain don't need to be messing with knots that people's life depend on. Knots are either right or wrong, there is no in between here. there is probably an old thread from about three years ago where this very knot was discussed, I have seen it as an example of what not to do when tying a bowline before, but I am not the one who needs to do the research here. I am sick and tired of idiots who don't know sh!t acting like there is nothing wrong with making a mistake in tying a critical knot. Your life depends on your ability to make a good knot, so put out some effort and get this right. BTW, screw the Dutch navy, several sites mention this 'left handed bowline' (incorrectly named FYI, a true left handed bowline would be the morror image of the regualr one) as less secure than the correct bowline.
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sbaclimber
Jul 7, 2006, 3:20 AM
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dirtineye, even though I fully agree with the priciple of your argument, there are certain knots where the "left-handed" variation is just as good as the right-handed (the figure 8 on a bight for example). Due to the fact that there is no conclusive evidence to say that the left handed bowline is in fact as safe as the right-handed, I agree with you, it would not be wise to trust it, but for that reason only.
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sbaclimber
Jul 7, 2006, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: BTW, screw the Dutch navy, several sites mention this 'left handed bowline' (incorrectly named FYI, a true left handed bowline would be the morror image of the regualr one) as less secure than the correct bowline. Most say that along with the word 'supposedly', I have yet to find facts or figures to support either theory. As I understand it, a left-handed knot is not the same as a mirror knot. That would imply a correctly tied Figure 8 with the tail coming out the left side is a Left-Handed Figure 8, and one with it coming out the right hand side would be a 'proper' Figure 8. Or, wait a minute, maybe it is the other way around....... :? hhhhmmmm, nope I think it is all a load of bollocks :roll: (not the correct way to tie a knot, just your definition of "left-handed" :wink: ) PS, look up left-handed sheetbend, you will see what I mean.
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