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blueeyedclimber
Jul 6, 2006, 12:57 PM
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In reply to: Good thread topic. I do have a suggestion though. If it is filled with pages of dos and donts the inexperienced among us may lose sight of their priorities as a belayer. In general terms and prioritized this is what I think a belayer's job is: 1. Catch any Fall - If they fail here then nothing else matters.
Yes, golsen....#1 rule is catch EVERY fall...NO MATTER WHAT!
but... my thread was more for the next step. Assume I am a beginner. Now I know not to EVER take my hand off the break and to always catch my climber. Is that all there is to belaying. My gym says I know how to belay. THey even gave me a card with my picture on it. It must be true. (says in my dad's voice) "Well, Mr. NOOB, when you were sixteen-22 years-old, you had a driver's liscence that says you could drive. Four accidents and multiple speeding tickets says that you couldn't."
This thread is for the climber who wants to start leading and wants to improve their technique and learn to place gear and learn to build anchors and yata yata yata. Belaying does not come up very often as one of those skills that needs improving. THAT"S WRONG!
So to all you out there that want to be a better climber (myself included)...Start with your belaying technique.
Josh
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bill413
Jul 6, 2006, 1:12 PM
Post #27 of 101
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My tip is to look around at what other people are doing. Think about what they are doing, analyze their belays. Look at what are they doing right, what is wrong, and what is just different.
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nthusiastj
Jul 6, 2006, 1:20 PM
Post #28 of 101
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In reply to: Advice to beginners scoping these forums? Beware of the absolutes. There are many tools and techniques in climbing. There are many situations as well, and matching tools/techniques to what is really happening is important. The political discussions of our times are descending to binaries of right/wrong - and so are many of the climbing debates on this site.
I agree. I have had a big problem with the "more experienced" climbers on here spouting absolutes. A dangerous thing for some of the climbers that look to this site for advice.
Educating yourself on various techniques is key. Be flexible.
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devils_advocate
Jul 6, 2006, 3:37 PM
Post #29 of 101
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In reply to: Advice to beginners scoping these forums? Beware of the absolutes.
Beginners, you absolutely can not believe what you read on the internet. They're wrong, everytime. Wouldn't taking up fly fishing be easier? :twisted:
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sidepull
Jul 6, 2006, 5:45 PM
Post #30 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: Advice to beginners scoping these forums? Beware of the absolutes. Beginners, you absolutely can not believe what you read on the internet. They're wrong, everytime. Wouldn't taking up fly fishing be easier? :twisted:
I only partially buy these arguments.
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saxfiend
Jul 6, 2006, 7:01 PM
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Thanks for the reminder of this old thread, it dovetails nicely with the current one.
JL
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sbaclimber
Jul 6, 2006, 9:31 PM
Post #32 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: Advice to beginners scoping these forums? Beware of the absolutes. Beginners, you absolutely can not believe what you read on the internet. They're wrong, everytime. Wouldn't taking up fly fishing be easier? :twisted:
I know a guy who fly fishes alot, and some of the stories he has told are just as hair raising as some of the climbing epics I have heard.
Of course, they could all just be 'fish stories' :wink: (sorry, I had to)
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tradrenn
Jul 6, 2006, 10:52 PM
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8^)
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rgbscan
Jul 6, 2006, 11:42 PM
Post #34 of 101
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In reply to: 4. When belaying with ATC please keep your hand below the ATC ( never above, unless you have to pay out slack quickly, then lower your hand below the ATC )
I still see a lot of people do the hands up pinch and slide belay method. This has always made me nervous. I too prefer the hands down belay.
Chris
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jaybro
Jul 6, 2006, 11:46 PM
Post #35 of 101
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Good thread! The idea that belaying is a skill that continues to be refined, as long as you climb, cannot be overstressed. There are always going to be new devices, and every belay situation is different ( you can't do the same belay twice)
Golsens rules rock. (number one is like the Robot rules or the start of the hippocratic oath)
This all carries over to many areas in climbing, but especially to spotting.
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cosmiccragsman
Jul 7, 2006, 12:33 AM
Post #36 of 101
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Trophy to Blueeyedclimber for starting a good forum.
As many other members have stated, every situation in belaying
is different, and you have to constantly be aware of what's
going on.
I started climbing before the modern day belay device, and have had many bouts with rope rash around the waist, and never let go of the rope,
no matter how much it hurt.
Belaying is very serious work and shouldn't be taken lightly.
I have seen many belayer, with their mind on something else,
and not paying attention to what is happening, and they are very lucky
that the climber didn't get hurt bad, or killed.
Remember, "If you let go of dis rope, I belaying on the ground!!!"
Cosmiccragsman
Blueeye I'll climb with you anyday. :) Good post
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flyinglow
Jul 7, 2006, 1:07 AM
Post #37 of 101
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In reply to: 1. Catch any Fall - If they fail here then nothing else matters.
one more addition:
2. Maximise the safety of your leader and your party.
the rest should fall in to place if a belayer is actually thinking about these two rules.
Thinking about what's going on is just as important as being an anchor for the grigri(or whatever device...)
Before the climb:
-Am i familiar with the usage and limitations of the equipment i'm using?
Grigri's, Atc's, trad gear, bolts, rope, etc. familiarity with the equipment will allow you to make informed decisions about what is the right thing to do at a given time.
-Where is the best belay stance likely to be? Comfort, features/roofs to avoid, rope management, climber visibility
-What is likely to happen on this climb? Is it going to be a hang-fest with lots of falls, sketchy clips, etc. what particular dangers are unique to this situation? What looks like the crux of the climb?(where are falls most likely?)
-What will happen when the leader falls?
Are there ledges/roofs/features you need to keep in mind? How is the protection? How long are the runouts?
-What do i do if something goes wrong? Lower off? Self rescue techniques, availability of medical help/rescue?
-Is anchoring a good idea? (not generally an question on multipitch, but sometimes there's ways to improve the situation.)
-Are all safety checks done? (knot, harness, biners locked, equipment in good condition)
During the climb:
-Is there anything you can do to make the leader's fall potential safer? dynamic catch to soften fall/reduce swing or, hard catch to avoid decking, slack so they clear roofs if they fall
-What's going to happen to me if the leader falls?
be prepared to be yanked upwards if the fall is long.
get your feet out to protect yourself from the wall when they fall if you can
select a stance that will protect you from roofs/features/falling rock/falling climber(first piece or two of pro).Try to stand near/under the first piece of pro so you don't swing wildly. this is particlarly important w/ a tube style device, as your climber is depending on your being conscious to catch them.
-Where is the leader's next pro? When are they likely to need more slack?
How does the climber look?
paying attention to what's going on with the climber will help you be prepared to do the right thing at the right time and able to anticipate their needs/falls.
please comment/improve or add on to this list if you like. this list is basically just what goes through my mind on a climb, and there may be things i've missed. I'm always thinking and trying to improve my belay skills.
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 5:39 PM
Post #38 of 101
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In reply to: Few things I would like to add to this thread 1. Talk to your partner before first climb and find out what they like/dislike in belay...
n00b advice. An experienced belayer already knows the answer.
In reply to: 2. Belayers should be able to walk around, at the start of the climb when leaders leg is ( or might be ) behind the rope belayer can move to the left or right ( as situation requires ) and fix that problem. Don't just stay in the same spot all the time. ( Sometimes we don't know that our leg is behind the rope ) When leader is higher up you might want to let her/him know about it.
Agree that the belayer needs to move around, especially at the start of the climb, but the leader ought to never step in front of the rope, and should be acutely aware if the rope "gets" behind his leg.
In reply to: 3. Spot your leader and as soon as they clip into first piece of pro ( or bolt ) move to the left or right and keep and use your other free hand to keep the rope close to the rock or right against it, that will help to keep leader from putting her/his leg behind the rope.
Agree.
In reply to: 4. When belaying with ATC please keep your hand below the ATC ( never above, unless you have to pay out slack quickly, then lower your hand below the ATC )
More n00b advice. I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me.
In reply to: 5. If your stance is not perfect, please keep your left hand on the rope so you can pay out slack quickly, just in case you should loose balance, trip over ( that way you will not pull leader off the wall )
Huh?
In reply to: 6. When leader says: Watch me it doesn't mean to "Take" or remove slack from the system. It means "I'm about to climb thru the crux or sketchy section.
That's a good point. Moreover, if he says "take" above his pro, he doesn't mean it. Don't "take"'; just catch his fall.
Jay
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cracklover
Jul 7, 2006, 8:09 PM
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Okay, sport climbers can skip over this post. Sorry, it's directed at trad climbers. I don't know enough about sport to give advanced advice about belaying in that arena.
* Practice giving a soft catch before you need to do it. It's not as easy as it seems, especially if you outweigh your climber. While this skill is pretty commonly known in sport climbing, it's even more applicable to trad climbing, but rarely practiced by modern trad climbers.
* Anticipate what kind of a catch you should be about to give. As you watch your leader, you should always be thinking about what to do if he suddenly pops off!
Here are your choices:
1 - Give a soft catch
2 - Just lock off
3 - Lock and sit
4 - Yard in slack while jumping backward as hard as you can
5 - Yard in slack while you take off running
6 - Keep just enough tension to keep the leader taut to his upper piece, but loose enough to allow you to skidaddle.
We can even make a game of this. Here are a few situations your climber may be in. Which of the above should you be mentally preparing yourself to do if the leader suddenly pops off? My answers are below.
A - Leader is pumped, places a good piece above her and needs to hang on the piece to check out the moves.
B - Leader is midway through a steep pitch, and has good gear near her waist.
C - Leader is midway up the pitch, five feet over a good piece, and fifteen feet over a big ankle-breaking ledge.
D - Multi-pitch climb. Leader is starting a steep pitch - his last piece is five feet below him, and it's the only thing between him and you. You know it's a marginal piece.
E - Leader has good gear above him, and pulls off a big block that's heading straight for you!
F - Leader is 120 feet up, 40 feet above the last bolt on a slab climb.
So next time you're belaying, watch your leader and keep thinking about what the appropriate catch should be if he suddenly pops. Then ask yourself if you feel competent to do that type of catch. If not, practice it at the first opportunity. And if you're not sure what you should have done at that moment in time, discuss it with your leader after the fact.
GO
------------------
A - 3 No need to force the leader to reclimb in the crux - take out the slack
B - 2
C - 4 No broken ankles on that ledge, please!
D - 1 Anything you can do to keep that piece in the rock!
E - 6 Get out of the way without dropping your leader. The friction through the top biner will help you.
F - 5 If the leader is really sketching and you're at a good stance, consider unclipping from the anchor so you're ready to go!
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saxfiend
Jul 7, 2006, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: Here are your choices: 1 - Give a soft catch 2 - Just lock off 3 - Lock and sit 4 - Yard in slack while jumping backward as hard as you can 5 - Yard in slack while you take off running 6 - Keep just enough tension to keep the leader taut to his upper piece, but loose enough to allow you to skidaddle. We can even make a game of this. Here are a few situations your climber may be in. Which of the above should you be mentally preparing yourself to do if the leader suddenly pops off? My answers are below. A - Leader is pumped, places a good piece above her and needs to hang on the piece to check out the moves. B - Leader is midway through a steep pitch, and has good gear near her waist. C - Leader is midway up the pitch, five feet over a good piece, and fifteen feet over a big ankle-breaking ledge. D - Multi-pitch climb. Leader is starting a steep pitch - his last piece is five feet below him, and it's the only thing between him and you. You know it's a marginal piece. E - Leader has good gear above him, and pulls off a big block that's heading straight for you! F - Leader is 120 feet up, 40 feet above the last bolt on a slab climb.
On question C, your answer was to yard in slack while jumping backward; I'd have answered just lock off and sit. My reasoning is that if the leader is five feet above the piece and peels, their fall is going to be 10 feet plus the little slack I would have out, so they would stop before hitting the ledge 15 feet below. Do you think that's cutting things too close?
JL
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cracklover
Jul 7, 2006, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Here are your choices: 1 - Give a soft catch 2 - Just lock off 3 - Lock and sit 4 - Yard in slack while jumping backward as hard as you can 5 - Yard in slack while you take off running 6 - Keep just enough tension to keep the leader taut to his upper piece, but loose enough to allow you to skidaddle. We can even make a game of this. Here are a few situations your climber may be in. Which of the above should you be mentally preparing yourself to do if the leader suddenly pops off? My answers are below. A - Leader is pumped, places a good piece above her and needs to hang on the piece to check out the moves. B - Leader is midway through a steep pitch, and has good gear near her waist. C - Leader is midway up the pitch, five feet over a good piece, and fifteen feet over a big ankle-breaking ledge. D - Multi-pitch climb. Leader is starting a steep pitch - his last piece is five feet below him, and it's the only thing between him and you. You know it's a marginal piece. E - Leader has good gear above him, and pulls off a big block that's heading straight for you! F - Leader is 120 feet up, 40 feet above the last bolt on a slab climb. Good stuff to think about! On question C, your answer was to yard in slack while jumping backward; I'd have answered just lock off and sit. My reasoning is that if the leader is five feet above the piece and peels, their fall is going to be 10 feet plus the little slack I would have out, so they would stop before hitting the ledge 15 feet below. Do you think that's cutting things too close? JL
Good question! There's no time to do the math out in the field, so I'd try to err on the side of caution. But seeing as how we can play with numbers now, let's take a quick look at it now and see who's right.
60 feet of rope out, 10 foot fall = fall factor 0.17. Static stretch is typically around 7%, which in 60 feet of rope is 4 feet. I'd guess you could easily get double that amount of rope stretch from a factor 0.17 fall - or 8 feet. That means the climber would probably hit the ledge in the middle of the rope stretch if you do #3, as you suggested, but might not hit it at all if you did #4, as I suggested.
So if I'm on the ground, I'm definitely doing all I can to keep the leader off that ledge. I'd go with #3. If I'm locked in on a belay ledge - I'd do just what you suggested, and hope for the best.
This, in fact, is exactly what I was thinking before doing the math. But it's good to check one's assumptions.
GO
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jdouble
Jul 7, 2006, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me.
But I thought you liked the Gri-Gri?
Kidding, kidding, kidding..................
Seriously, why would a belayer not want to be in the locked off position (or close to it) by default?
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caughtinside
Jul 7, 2006, 9:22 PM
Post #43 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me. But I thought you liked the Gri-Gri? Kidding, kidding, kidding.................. Seriously, why would a belayer not want to be in the locked off position (or close to it) by default?
because they WILL shortrope you.
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 9:27 PM
Post #44 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me. But I thought you liked the Gri-Gri? Kidding, kidding, kidding.................. Seriously, why would a belayer not want to be in the locked off position (or close to it) by default? because they WILL shortrope you.
That's the main reason. It also tells me that they are some combination of n00b, trad, or Euro, all causes for worry.
Jay
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saxfiend
Jul 7, 2006, 10:22 PM
Post #45 of 101
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In reply to: 60 feet of rope out, 10 foot fall = fall factor 0.17. Static stretch is typically around 7%, which in 60 feet of rope is 4 feet. I'd guess you could easily get double that amount of rope stretch from a factor 0.17 fall - or 8 feet. That means the climber would probably hit the ledge in the middle of the rope stretch if you do #3, as you suggested, but might not hit it at all if you did #4, as I suggested.
Of course, as a practical consideration, if the leader is midway up the pitch, I as belayer am not going to be in any position to accurately judge how far he is above his last piece or above the ledge. So my default probably should be to assume I need to do something like #4 if he falls, just in case.
JL
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cracklover
Jul 7, 2006, 11:01 PM
Post #46 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: 60 feet of rope out, 10 foot fall = fall factor 0.17. Static stretch is typically around 7%, which in 60 feet of rope is 4 feet. I'd guess you could easily get double that amount of rope stretch from a factor 0.17 fall - or 8 feet. That means the climber would probably hit the ledge in the middle of the rope stretch if you do #3, as you suggested, but might not hit it at all if you did #4, as I suggested. Good point, I wasn't taking rope stretch into account. Of course, as a practical consideration, if the leader is midway up the pitch, I as belayer am not going to be in any position to accurately judge how far he is above his last piece or above the ledge. So my default probably should be to assume I need to do something like #4 if he falls, just in case. JL
You know, the more I think about it - a 10 foot fall is pretty short. In real life, I think your action and mine would equal pretty much exactly the same thing. There's so little time between when you realize the leader pops off and when the rope comes taut, I doubt there's time to jump back more than like six inches. Change the scenario to say the climber is 10 feet above the gear and 20 - 25 feet above the ledge, and I think you've now got a strong need for catch #4.
GO
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jsh
Jul 7, 2006, 11:02 PM
Post #47 of 101
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If I can add one thing:
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever put tension on a leader unless s/he asks for it.
(this is, in my humble experience, news to a surprising amount of people. I don't understand it, but I think the psychology goes that somehow if a non-leading belayer can "feel" you through the rope, they feel like they're keeping you safer.)
okay, one more thing:
When the leader goes to clip, haul out as much gd. rope as you can at once. Once the piece is clipped, *then* take the appropriate amount back in (but see above).
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jsh
Jul 7, 2006, 11:02 PM
Post #48 of 101
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If I can add one thing:
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever put tension on a leader unless s/he asks for it.
(this is, in my humble experience, news to a surprising amount of people. I don't understand it, but I think the psychology goes that somehow if a non-leading belayer can "feel" you through the rope, they feel like they're keeping you safer.)
okay, one more thing:
When the leader goes to clip, haul out as much gd. rope as you can at once. Once the piece is clipped, *then* take the appropriate amount back in (but see above).
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dingus
Jul 7, 2006, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me. But I thought you liked the Gri-Gri? Kidding, kidding, kidding.................. Seriously, why would a belayer not want to be in the locked off position (or close to it) by default? because they WILL shortrope you.
Take off your rose colored grigris, that "WILL" crap is bullshit. I belayed that way for many years in all types of climbing and rarely or never short roped a leader. Its called 'paying attention' and it works equally well for atc's and stitch belay plates as it does hip belays and grigri's.
Sheesh!
DMT
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dingus
Jul 7, 2006, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I won't even let someone who keeps the rope locked off by default belay me. But I thought you liked the Gri-Gri? Kidding, kidding, kidding.................. Seriously, why would a belayer not want to be in the locked off position (or close to it) by default? because they WILL shortrope you. That's the main reason. It also tells me that they are some combination of n00b, trad, or Euro, all causes for worry. Jay
Yeah well you're entitled to whatever belayers will tolerate you, but this WILL short rope you crap is total bullshit. I'm sorry you've been short roped repeatedly by incompetent belayers. You SHOULD take more care in who holds your ropes.
I've rarely or never short roped leaders belaying from a locked off position. Its called paying attention. Works equally well for stitch belay plates, atc's, hip belays as well as grigris.
Each of these devices or methods can induce short roping if ill used. But to assert flat out that you WILL get short roped is noob bullshit.
DMT
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