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rhythm164
Jul 29, 2006, 9:43 PM
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In reply to: That's a pic of me. I thought I'd open up this great route to the sport climbing masses, even though it accepts great gear.
You're a moron.
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mr8615
Jul 30, 2006, 1:23 AM
Post #52 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: Using this logic, why not make every aid climb an A1 bolt ladder? You don't have to clip the bolts, or if you're too scared or inexperienced, you can clip the bolts to back up your pro. I agree, it's about the commitment, gain the knowledge, the skill, the gear, and the balls to climb the climb in the way that it was first climbed, or just go find an easier, less commiting climb within your comfort zone. Ah yes, those first ascent sport climbs are the ones you never forget... :cry: You'll have to forgive me, a wave of nostalgia just washed over me.
It's not sport FA's that I'm talking about, it's bolting for the masses, ie. bolted cracks. Cracks shouldn't be sport climbs to begin with. Click the link I posted, if that climb was bolted it would be just another 5.13 sport climb, It's special because he climbed it CLEAN, in a BOLD style befitting the line. You must've missed my point, iceman.
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the_iceman
Jul 30, 2006, 2:32 AM
Post #53 of 103
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In reply to: for the record, I'm only 21. I'm not sure I qualify as an "old fart" but maybe my opinions make me seem that way.
No perhaps not an old fart... Maybe just dogmatic? :o I can understand people being pissed about it, I don't think anybody is a bad person for thinking it's wrong, maybe just... wrong.
While there are some people who do care enough about nature, etc, that they never drive cars, don't shop at malls, or bag their groceries (in paper OR plastic) don't live in big cities, don't eat meat, don't build houses, or do much of anything else. For the rest of us, it's kinda hypocritical to be complaining about a few bolts in a rock.
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builttospill
Jul 30, 2006, 4:56 AM
Post #54 of 103
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Good point iceman, but I like to do what I can to minimize my impact. I drive an economy car. I try not to drive TOO much. I don't take bags for my stuff at stores if I can carry it in my hands. I recycle what I can, but I'm no saint.
Rock is a valuable resource to me, and other climbers, so it seems even more hypocritical to deface it than to take a grocery bag at the supermarket, but rationally, both are destroying the earth in some way, yes.
P.S. Big cities are actually probably better for the environment, as it keeps all environmental impact local. Minimizes wildlife disruption, etc. It's debatable because traffic jams = increased vehicle emissions, so there's a trade-off, but I'm pretty sure most agree that keeping human populations centralized is actually better in the long run.
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the_iceman
Jul 30, 2006, 5:10 AM
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Sure there are benefits to bigger cities, but they also effectively destroy the entire eco system for miles around. Not to mention the huge smog issues, etc. But no, living in large cities is not inherently bad. But then neither is building a freeway, building a house, etc. I was just saying, unless one is willing to do everything they can do minimize their impact on the earth, they're splitting hairs when it comes to bolts on a route. Despite my choosing to play Devil's Advocate, I don't support bolting every route you see, but I also don't condemn those who chose to bolt, or to call them unethical for that decision.
I don't bolt routes, I don't have the money right now, and like I said, there are plenty of developed sport routes right here in our backyard. Although, I'm sure you would agree, some of the people who bolted Rock Canyon had no business bolting in the first place. Not even for the rap anchors at the top, as evidenced by some of the crappy bolting on top of The Kitchen.
And I've been tempted to chop some of those bolts and sink some more reasonable ones. But I don't, because I think it would be a waste, and just damage the rock more than necessary. But I've sure been tempted...
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vanclimber
Jul 30, 2006, 8:26 AM
Post #56 of 103
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Iceman, how long have you climbed? You might feel different about bolted cracks when you stop toproping 5.7.
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the_iceman
Jul 30, 2006, 9:46 AM
Post #57 of 103
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In reply to: Iceman, how long have you climbed? You might feel different about bolted cracks when you stop toproping 5.7.
We can only hope, right?
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steve-o
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Jul 30, 2006, 1:22 PM
Post #58 of 103
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In reply to: Every time someone bolts a crack, God kills a kitten.
There's nothing like standing before a line that has no fixed pro and leaving no trace of yourself after you've climbed it. I'm over here climbing in Europe right now. I see alot of totally protectable cracks bolted out of laziness. Cracks aren't as common here so what would never be allowed in the US is totally accepted.
Didier Berthod, a famous swiss climber, takes such a good stance on bolting climbs that could be protected on gear. He has redpointed a crack named Green Spit 5.14- in Italy, placing gear on lead. He has sent other 13+ cracks. Don't bring the climb down to your level, rise to the challenge.
I also love to climb sport and have no problem with bolts when there is no other way to protect. I just want to see the adventure and variety in climbing remain.
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jt512
Jul 30, 2006, 2:45 PM
Post #59 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: I wouldn't bolt the crack either, but I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with it. It reduces the commitment of the climb. ... And again, it reduces the commitment of the climb.
No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure.
Jay
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the_iceman
Jul 30, 2006, 3:07 PM
Post #60 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I wouldn't bolt the crack either, but I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with it. It reduces the commitment of the climb. ... And again, it reduces the commitment of the climb. No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay
Gotta agree with you there Jay.
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pt
Jul 30, 2006, 3:54 PM
Post #61 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I wouldn't bolt the crack either, but I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with it. It reduces the commitment of the climb. ... And again, it reduces the commitment of the climb. No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay
This may seem true if thought about very superficially, but I don't think this is a valid argument. While it is true that many sport climbs are very commiting depending on the bolt spacing, you cannot say that a bolted crack is more commiting than an unbolted crack, unless the bolts are 20 feet apart, which is very rare for a sport bolted route. Most sport routes have a bolt every 8 feet which would be an average placement spacing for a crack climber. Sometimes you have to place several pieces in a short span if gear is suspect or you know a runout is coming up, all of which increases the commitment level of a route. In addition, if a bolt is coming up, even if it is 10 feet away, you know it is bomber and all you need to do is clip it. That isn't always the case with a crack climb, you never know for sure what size piece is needed or if you will even be able to place a piece where you want it. I am not in any way bashing sport routes, I just can't imagine people truly believing that a bolted crack is somehow more commiting than the same crack without bolts.
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pyrosis
Jul 30, 2006, 4:03 PM
Post #62 of 103
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In reply to: Why shouldn't you bolt a crack? Why shoudn't we run an escalator up ther side of mount everest so tourists can enjoy the mountain as well?
Damn! I was gonna say that! :)
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pyrosis
Jul 30, 2006, 4:12 PM
Post #63 of 103
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In reply to: No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay
Gotta give you props for the excellent troll. Okay, I'll bite. Are you f*ing kidding me? Mindlessly clipping bolts is MORE comitting than placing your own gear? IF the bolts are very widely spaced (which they almost never are at most sport areas) and IF the crack is perfect splitter like at Indian Creek, then you may be able to contrive something more runout by only clipping bolts. What intelligent climber would ever skip bomber gear in favor of runout bolts? Nobody climbs that way. Why not just free solo, then, if you're trying to make a runout where there isnt one? And on runout climbs, such as a Tuolumne slab with only a few chickenheads and a few bolts, usually if you take the bolts away they will be MORE runout. You can't honestly feel this way, as someone who I know leads crack also (though probably won't admit it in this thread!) So, what your saying is that cracks should be bolted sparsely in order to contrive a runout where there isn't one? By your logic, we should only use 1/4" buttonheads too, right? Because then we'll be REALLY bold.
Not to say I'm not in favor of bolts in a lot of situations, they have their time and place, such as on limestone or volcanic choss where the gear isn't safe. But please... Why bolt a crack when there's already more classic sport climbs in the world than you will ever be able to climb? Leave the poor crack alone, for god's sake.
By the way, is this pic from the RRQ? Just curious...
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fracture
Jul 30, 2006, 4:49 PM
Post #64 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay Gotta give you props for the excellent troll. Okay, I'll bite. Are you f*ing kidding me? Mindlessly clipping bolts is MORE comitting than placing your own gear?
You forgot the "mindlessly" in front of "placing your own gear".
In reply to: So, what your saying is that cracks should be bolted sparsely in order to contrive a runout where there isn't one?
Maybe I'm just mildly retarded, but I don't think Jay said anything even remotely similar to that. He merely pointed out that the claim that leading a splitter on bolts is "less committing" doesn't really make much sense, if you actually take the time to think about it.
In reply to: But please... Why bolt a crack when there's already more classic sport climbs in the world than you will ever be able to climb?
Personally, I like bolted cracks because I hate kittens.
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fracture
Jul 30, 2006, 4:54 PM
Post #65 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: Why shouldn't you bolt a crack? Why shoudn't we run an escalator up ther side of mount everest so tourists can enjoy the mountain as well? Damn! I was gonna say that! :)
I've got the answer for you: Everest is already quite enjoyable to the rich tourists who get dragged up it---sans the proposed escalator. The cost would probably outweigh the possible increase in revenue, so it doesn't make sense to build it.
;)
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pyrosis
Jul 30, 2006, 5:42 PM
Post #66 of 103
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Next you're going to tell me that Sonny Trotter's ascent of the West Face of Monkey Face all on gear was less comitting than the people who go up there and clip the bolts next to the crack? Not that I'll ever drag my fat ass up that thing, but still...
And when Eric Decaria climbed Air Sweden in Return to Sender, that wouldve been more comitting if there were bolts every six feet up the arete instead of the 20 foot 5.13 runout that exists there naturally?
And, I've got to admit I've never climbed at the Creek, but I've also never climbed a splitter so perfect that placing my own gear was "mindless", whereas clipping bolts always seems to be so to me. Thus, I do think clipping bolts is less comitting: you do not have to know how to place gear, and you do not have to take responsibility for the quality of your protection, you simply leave it to someone else. And yes, good cracks generally protect well, so we get back to the question of why waste your time and money putting bolts next to them? So that iceman will climb them without having to buy gear when he's done toproping that 5.7? Should we build an escalator for the approach so he doesn't get out of breath or break a sweat on his way up to the crag? Cmon, goddammit, the whole point of climbing is that it is hard, scary at times, and in the end very rewarding because of those things.
Claiming that bolts next to a crack makes it more comitting is like putting colored tape on small holds next to a line of jugs and saying that climbing on those holds makes the line harder. Its contrived!
The point is, that men with balls take what the rock provides naturally, and dont alter the protection possibilities by putting in bolts. Sport climbing is great and fun and I do it often, but bolting lines of natural pro is pointless and ridiculous. Even if its at RRQ.
Anyway, whatever. This thread has convinced me to invest in chopping equipment.
Long live the Forks and the Buttermilk. Too bad more bolt-free areas dont exist.
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay Gotta give you props for the excellent troll. Okay, I'll bite. Are you f*ing kidding me? Mindlessly clipping bolts is MORE comitting than placing your own gear? You forgot the "mindlessly" in front of "placing your own gear". In reply to: So, what your saying is that cracks should be bolted sparsely in order to contrive a runout where there isn't one? Maybe I'm just mildly retarded, but I don't think Jay said anything even remotely similar to that. He merely pointed out that the claim that leading a splitter on bolts is "less committing" doesn't really make much sense, if you actually take the time to think about it. In reply to: But please... Why bolt a crack when there's already more classic sport climbs in the world than you will ever be able to climb? Personally, I like bolted cracks because I hate kittens. |
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fracture
Jul 30, 2006, 6:16 PM
Post #68 of 103
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In reply to: Next you're going to tell me that Sonny Trotter's ascent of the West Face of Monkey Face all on gear was less comitting than the people who go up there and clip the bolts next to the crack? Not that I'll ever drag my fat ass up that thing, but still...
Trotter skipped those bolts on send to make the climb easier, not to make it harder. It's the same tactic Sharma used on Biographie, and it's something nearly all sport climbers who don't suck understand.
Also, I don't think that thing was a "splitter"---so it's kinda irrelevant. Another interesting point is that (IIRC) Trotter used the bolts while working the route.
But either way, I'd argue that the difference in "committment" involved in a safe but longer fall, all other things being equal, is based solely on irrational fear---it is certainly still real fear (and few climbers can as nonchalantly take an 80ft whipper as they do a 20ft one), but in an important sense the "committment" is illusory, and with training (gradual desensitization) a longer fall can often feel no scarier than a shorter one.
In reply to: And yes, good cracks generally protect well, so we get back to the question of why waste your time and money putting bolts next to them?
So you (and others) can sport climb them, of course.
And because of this guy:
http://uncyclopedia.org/...px-Orange_Kitten.jpg
In reply to: The point is, that men with balls take what the rock provides naturally, and dont alter the protection possibilities by putting in bolts.
Ahh, a machismo version of the naturalistic fallacy. Neato.
In case you didn't realize it, cams don't grow on rocks, and neither do bolts. Neither practice is more or less "natural" than the other. And more importantly, even if one were, that wouldn't be sufficient argument to imply that it is better.
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sirdrinksalot
Jul 30, 2006, 7:37 PM
Post #70 of 103
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In reply to: what about sex with your grandma? Anyone I know thinks its wrong and I think its wrong too. I think the logic of if everyone thinks its so wrong it must be right is pretty filled with holes....
But what if my grandma wants to have sex? Are you saying that is wrong? Cuz I think its wrong to say its wrong for old people to have sex. Wrinkley, ashey, old people sex. I shudder at the thought. Or, what if my grandma is dead and i start crying cuz you offended me with a "sex with your grandma" comment. You'd be the chode then. You know what i mean?
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builttospill
Jul 30, 2006, 8:26 PM
Post #71 of 103
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I wouldn't bolt the crack either, but I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with it. It reduces the commitment of the climb. ... And again, it reduces the commitment of the climb. No matter how many times you write that it'll still be wrong. Climbing a splitter crack using just the bolts increases the commitment of the climb compared to protecting it with gear. If you only clip the bolts, you have to climb to the next bolt; whereas, if you are protecting it with gear, you can throw in a cam anywhere you feel insecure. Jay
Having bolts next to the crack doesn't inherently increase the commitment of the climb, even if I concede that bolts might make a climb more committing if you clip ONLY bolts. With bolts there, you can still sew it up in between.
I suppose that the commitment issue depends on whether you are comfortable climbing over your own gear. My fear when climbing trad doesn't depend solely on how high I am over said gear.....it's simply a matter that I don't trust myself completely and that makes MY commitment higher than clipping bolts I trust.
Wait, Jay, weren't you the one that posted that picture anyway? :wink:
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kalcario
Jul 30, 2006, 9:24 PM
Post #72 of 103
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In reply to: you never know for sure what size piece is needed or if you will even be able to place a piece where you want it. I am not in any way bashing sport routes, I just can't imagine people truly believing that a bolted crack is somehow more commiting than the same crack without bolts.
Wrong. Experienced climbers can look up at a splitter crack and tell what size gear it takes, there's also guidebooks that tell what gear to bring. Garden variety, Yosemite/Indian Creek style crack climbing, you know what gear to bring and where it goes before you leave the deck. I fact the climbing itself is like that too, not just placing the gear, to the point where you know so much about the route when you leave the ground(compared to a limestone sport route with no chalk on it) that it almost takes away the onsight.
A bolted crack with bolts every 20' is going to be more committing than a gear lead of the same pitch.
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kalcario
Jul 30, 2006, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: Can you actually name any sport routes that have the bolts 20' apart through the crux sections? 20' runouts on hard climbing would be considered relatively bold even in traditionally developed areas such as JT and Eldo and those routes would not be considered sport routes.
That's bacause those routes aren't overhanging. 20' runouts on hard climbing on upper level sport routes that are tall and steep are the norm, not the exception. As long as you're not going to hit anything, it's pretty safe - big falls do not necessarily equal bold climbing. Biographie 14c at Ceuse is commonly redpointed on 4 bolts, and it's 85' high. Just don't blow that second clip...
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pyrosis
Jul 30, 2006, 10:54 PM
Post #75 of 103
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In reply to: Trotter skipped those bolts on send to make the climb easier, not to make it harder.
He didn't just skip certain bolts, he skipped ALL the bolts. Fiddling in micro nuts next to a bolt made it easier?
Speaking of the naturalistic fallacy, why don't we chip lines into blank faces so that we've got more sport routes to climb? Or drill holes through tufas to make limestone 14's available to the 5.11 climbing masses. Or better yet, just bolt plastic holds onto natural rock walls? Now you're talking. Where does it all end?
Now I like sport climbing myself, but talking to deluded sport climbers gets me so worked up that I want to go chop some sport climbs, just for fun! (Only if I can lead them on gear, of course...)
J/K, but you do have to draw the line somewhere, or every area will eventually look like your local climbing gym, perfectly grid bolted and with colored tape marking every hold for every variation.
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