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lunabruandabby
Aug 3, 2006, 10:14 PM
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Why query when it sounds like you have made up your mind already? My 2 cents...bolt where it is unprotectable otherwise allow for the placement of natural protection. (even if it clogs a hold/jam)
Justin
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fracture
Aug 3, 2006, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: What say you?
Design it to stick-clipped say I---but as others mentioned, it sounds like this ain't exactly the type of sporto-choss-crag where everyone carries a 12' pole. On those grounds, bolting it might be better just for the convenience factor.
It's entirely up to you and the other locals, of course. The stance in your OP of wanting to develop routes that you would want to climb (more than just once) certainly seems like the "right thing", to me.
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dingus
Aug 3, 2006, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: So before I tell you what I think, I'm going to apologize. I know that you're looking for fun off-the-cuff battles between sport wankers and trad turds.
Not really I guess. Sure, it could get to that but thus far I've resisted the tug.
I've actually been thinking about some of the proposed compromises, even the stick clip thing. I will definitely consider them all onsite next time I'm there.
In reply to: I think you should do what you please.
Cheers! I will do that, but I'm only BORERLINE sociopathic. I do occasionally want to know what my peers think, both locally and abroad. And I'd like to think others will want to climb here eventually, so that tempers what "I" want as well.
I started this thread out with 2 'defined' positions and now have a couple of others to consider as well.
In reply to: At that point, if no-one else had done it,
An interesting idea, but not without risk. Its that 'if' part you threw in there. I don't want to be conceited, but damnit I blazed and cut a back breaking trail to get to this place, I spent weekends sussing out the possibilities, I found this face and I'd like to see it through. There is a creative process all its own, new routing, that is more akin to art or engineering than it is climbing. I like your writing, for example, I think you have talent. But unless we specifically partnered to do a story, I would be very unhappy with a story I began but you (or worse, someone for whom I hold no respect) finished. It wouldn't be 'mine.' Not the 'route,' as I don't believbe the FA owns the line either. But the 'creation,' and the effort that went into a good line that others want to do? When they smile and tell you that a route you envisioned and then realized is one of their favorite routes in the area, its like when someone tells me they liked a story I wrote and probably for many of the same complex reasons, both noble and base.
There may be times when that is absolutely the best way to go (conceding the route to others). If, for example, I came to realize the climbing was technically beyond me? I would defer to my betters. I'd walk away.
What makes this line appealing is precisely that it scratches my adventure and creative itches, its a stunning line AND it is within my both my sphere of influence and capability. Plus its my trail!
Everyone who's ever found a new area has had to deal with this same dynamic... who do you tell and when. And at what cost. Spill the beans too soon and the very qualities you might thave been seeking are scooped up by those you told. That may be a good thing, or a very bitter pill to swallow.
Only the Shadow knows.
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Aug 3, 2006, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: Why query when it sounds like you have made up your mind already?
Maybe I'm not as closed minded as I suggested?
I'm not sure what I expected from this thread, but these rational and thought provoking answers are disturbing me!
Quien sabe, perhaps there is hope for me yet?
Nah!
DMT
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dingus
Aug 3, 2006, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: If this is the case (and I may be misreading things) it leads to the thought that rules are made by social construction and consensus not by the dictates of the FA.
I didn't mean it that way. I personally feel I can only lead by example and any 'rules' my peers choose to follow they will do so of their own volition. Its part of the reason I want to get it right.
In reply to: the people that follow either choose to agree or disagree, change or not change, the given ideas until they become accepted and diffused (and this generally entails some degree of change). Until this diffusion and acceptance occurs they are not rules.
I totally agree.
In reply to: 4) I'm not sure if "cowardly," "tired," or just "lame" are the right descriptors, I'll use weak. It's pretty weak that many of the people who have responded have abdicated their opinions with the "you're going to do what you want anyway" line. Here's an opportunity to provide input, but, like an good american in november, that's precisely the time to walk away.
In fairness to them, I certainly come across this way, an internet debate habit to have one's ducks lined up and ready to deploy. It is a thinking habit and its served me well in business too.
Cheers
DMT
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el_layclimber
Aug 3, 2006, 11:03 PM
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Dingus,
I also get the impression that you already know what you want to do. Anytime someone says "convince me to do the right thing," that is because they already know what that is.
In terms of appealing to users, if this area has more potential for clean climbing than bolt-protected routes, then it seems that most climbers there would be prepared for the challenge of getting on a 5.11 with a low crux on sketchy gear. If not, they should be willing to accept the idea that they aren't and climb another line; I know I am, and I enjoy the knowing that there are things I just have to imagine climbing.
Personally, I also enjoy the challenge of placing gear, which is not just about stabbing in a cam and powering on, but on finding good gear and making sure my placements don't interfere with my ability to climb. The route might be more interesting if the psychological challenges are not eliminated.
One final question: can you do the bottom section sans bolts? If you can't, is the "right thing" leaving the climb to someone who can (assuming they accept the rules you would have applied in choosing to leave the crack unbolted)?
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dingus
Aug 3, 2006, 11:11 PM
Post #32 of 117
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In reply to: Dingus, I also get the impression that you already know what you want to do.
Let me put it this way my brother... this morning I was a lot more sure of what I would probably end up doing than I am now!
In reply to: Anytime someone says "convince me to do the right thing," that is because they already know what that is.
You're probably right but you have to take the context of the medium into account. This is the internet. This is an open forum. This is rockclimbing.com. JT512 just got through spreading the luv on this same subject (another real world test case)... yes I was being me, but that me was in context with standard protocol as well. ie a partial joke, sarcasm and carefull thoughtout positions all at once!
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Aug 3, 2006, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: One final question: can you do the bottom section sans bolts? If you can't, is the "right thing" leaving the climb to someone who can (assuming they accept the rules you would have applied in choosing to leave the crack unbolted)?
Hmmm. How to splain... (yes, it can be done without a bolt next to the crack, I'm reasonably confident about that)
Part of the joy of the gig is the creative process of new routing. Its a big draw.
I have no problem with standing aside for the better climber if I can't do the line. But I do not subscribe to the view that an extra bolt lessens the potential value of this line in any way shape or form. The 'pure' principle, the dictum if you will, thou shalt not bolt next to cracks? Its largely a fantasy. Oh sure, there are pockets of purity. But lets head up any El Cap route you wish and I'll show you lots of bolts right next to cracks, placed by climbers one helluva lot better n' me at every aspect of the gig.
Context is super important. I'm open to new ideas and new ways to explain the old ways too!
I would encourage all ayall that feel I'm being closed minded, however, to take a very hard look in the mirror yourselves. Be willing to challenge and I mean challenge, your long held beliefs. Personally I've gone through watershed moments, complete changes of not just opinions but whole bodies of thought, politically, socially and certainly in climbing too. Used to be UltraTrad myself, lol.
But I found that in climbing, like politics, that the delta between theory and practice can be VERY WIDE indeed. I spoke the Ultratrad talk, but in reality I didn't really like walking that walk 24/7. Then one day I woke up and realized I had only myself to thank for that situation.
So I changed. As a younger man I would have considered that wishy washy. But young men, generally, know nothing about true compromise. That's why they make good canon fodder!
Cheers
DMT
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grampacharlie
Aug 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
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To bolt or not to bolt is an ongoing question in my area as well. Many people beleive that if you cannot climb it cleanly, in the best style possible, you should leave it for someone who can. That's a hard thing to swallow when faced with the opportunity for a first ascent. And who's to say some one else won't come by next month and bolt the hell out of it?
I personally prefer to trad climb and boulder, saving face climbs for either highball problems, or topropes. If you do place a bolt on this route, and do it with intention, it may help prevent others from comming back later and making the crag look like a hardware store threw up alll over the rocks.
I would also encourage you to publish something in regaurds to the style and ethics you would like to see carried out at this crag(even just a foldout put together on your home PC). If you feel that you have discovered this place, and are somewhat responsible for it's development and (potential) increase in popularity, then it may be up to you to outline some codes of sonduct for those visitors who maybe a little more bolt-happy than you.
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musicman1586
Aug 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
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Didn't quite read all the posts, but here's my two cents about it. Personally, if you can prevent it, I don't ever see a reason for X or R rated climbs, I know in lots of situations, whether it be no available protection or because bad rock quality makes placed or bolted pro be placed farther apart. Climbing should be enjoyable and in this modern day with the ability to make it so, it should be safe. I don't see a reason to unreasonably risk life or limb to climb a slab of rock, just not worth it in my opinion. Perhaps that's because not long after I started climbing I witnessed someone deck, or perhaps that's just my personality. Honestly if I did the FA I would like as many people to climb my route as possible, which means I would like it as accessible to others as possible, not just to those that want to risk it. Another reason I would support bolting it is because the only trad area close to me is all mixed. The gear-protectalbe climbs are trad cllimbs, the fairly unprotectable faces are sport climbs, and no one complains, they enjoy it all, and the cracks remain unbolted, even when next to sport routes. I know many people will disagree with this view and proclaim that alot of the fun of climbing is the danger, but like I said, if I was going to be opening up a route for the people of the world, I would want it to be easily enjoyed by as many people as possible, not the hardcore few that muster the guts to try it. In other words, I think bolting it would give the rock more appreciable value to all of the climbing community.
Kyle
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climboard
Aug 4, 2006, 2:55 AM
Post #36 of 117
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How about leaving the crack alone and giving it a shot on gear first? If you end up at the anchors with a big smile on your face you may want to leave it as-is. If not, add some bolts to the beginning, no harm no foul. It seems easier to add bolts after the fact than to remove them and all traces that they existed if you regret the decision later.
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cragmasterp
Aug 4, 2006, 3:38 AM
Post #37 of 117
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If the said crack section is only 15', and the crux is at the end of the crack, I would put a bolt at the top of the crack to protect the crux, and lead up to the bolt with whatever works. unless the crack it self is truly deperate, you should try to lead it on small pro. you should only need 1 or 2 placements in 15' of crack. (i can't know this for sure of course unless i actually tried to lead the route).
I have put up many routes and almost all are trad or mixed. blue aliens, lowe balls, HB offsets, purple tcu's all have held falls for me, some signifigant. at 15' of crack, you could bring in a pad and a spotter and have at it till you get to your 1st bolt, at the crux.
another interesting option would be to have a custom piton made by an artist blacksmith, out of stainless or titanium and fix this in the crack. this would give the route character and let the sporties have an honest go at the route. lost arrows make decent fixed pins also.
I always wanted to do this, have an artist make a crazy pin that had a cool dragon head on it or something, and place it high on a route where a climber could appreciate it as they clipped in to its nose.
hope the route goes the way you want it to in the end.
cheers, mate. 8^)
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sbaclimber
Aug 4, 2006, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: I always wanted to do this, have an artist make a crazy pin that had a cool dragon head on it or something, and place it high on a route where a climber could appreciate it as they clipped in to its nose. |
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cracklover
Aug 4, 2006, 4:46 AM
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Believe me, DMT, I know what it feels like to obsess about a new line. I didn't really think about that, though, when I posted my suggestion. Still, another nice thing about being older is the ability to sustain an interest long enough to go about things the right way - ensuring much more gratification in the long run than the headstrong young gun approach.
I doubt I can convince you. I'm not even sure I should try, if it's that sweet a line. Hell, you could get hit by a truck in a month and curse me that I made you wait before going after your baby. But if there's a chance you think my approach is emotionally feasible, here are a couple other things to consider: If you and BoW are the only ones that know about the crag, why not just keep it under your hat for a while, just invite out folks to help you develop, and don't show anyone this line. Are there other lines that have caught your eye at all? Think of how much fun it'd be to venture up one of those lines, not having previewed it on TR, with nothing but your rack, a few leaver slings and rap rings, and a little bolt kit "just in case". How cool would it be to find another sweet sweet well protected continuous line?
By the way, when I said "you should do what you please" - what I really meant was that between the good intentions you clearly have, and the experience of the climbing world you can bring to bear, I think you're likely to make a better choice of what to do without any of my input than I could possibly make for you with all the details you could give over the internet. (you still think I can write after a run-on sentence like that?!) I mean, the internet is a fun medium for discussion, but it's awfully crude for nuanced situations like this. And you know this! Which is why I originally assumed your point was mostly to troll for amusement!
Cheers!
GO
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climbsomething
Aug 4, 2006, 6:31 AM
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In reply to: if it can be adequately protected traditionally, use traditional methods. If not go ahead and bolt it.
Forgive me if this has been said already... I'm a very rare participant to this kind of campfire chat.
When a crag is considered a "sport area," and there are a few odd features that could theoretically take traditional pro, they are bolted anyway, for convenience and continuity. And the kinds of people who go there- those who clearly identify as primarily "sport climbers" (not to be confused with "trad climbers who do a little sport," IMHO) will gladly clip those bolts because they don't want to bring in gear, and they accept this style/ethic.
If this is largely a traditional and mixed area (and the mixed routes are clearly so, not "grey area" routes), then leave the starting crack alone. Like sport climbers who aren't inclined to climb the 2 trad routes among 200 sport routes, would a trad climber be inclined to get on the one sport route? The kind of people drawn to this place you describe - alpine trad craggin' - should be inclined to a little boldness, or define "bold" differently, and this type of attention-grabber start shouldn't be a huge deal. I mean, isn't that what these grizzled hard-dudes thrive on?
Do most of the walls look like they'll yield face routes? Then it's a sport area waiting to happen. Are most of the true lines cracks or otherwise stacked with naturally-protectable features? Then it'll be a trad area. Spacey dippy fortune cookie says, take a look around, and "do what the rock tells you... the rock whispers, so listen."
But if you do bolt it, by god rap bolt it and post a photo!!!!!!!!11
And that is my simplistic view.
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musicman
Aug 4, 2006, 7:05 AM
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ditto with climbsomething, i could say it in my own words, but it'd be the exact same thing without the sweet fortune cookie approach haha. but serioulsy dingus, bolt the hell out of it and post a photo!
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t-dog
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Aug 4, 2006, 7:11 AM
Post #42 of 117
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do the "Right Thing"! Put a bolt (or bolts) next to the crack! :lol: :lol:
I agree with climbsomething too, we want pictures to drive the neo-fanatics crazy!
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dingus
Aug 4, 2006, 2:37 PM
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In reply to: Which is why I originally assumed your point was mostly to troll for amusement! Cheers! GO
OK, remember the Band and 30 Days in the Hole tune:
all together now:
Every post is a trollllllllllllll!
Every post is a trollllllllllllll!
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Aug 4, 2006, 2:55 PM
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There is a nearby sport cragging area called Table Mountain, Sonora PAss Highway area. Originally developed by Yosemite locals, it is a classic 'mixed use' area in that along with the nice blocky overhanging sport routes there is a collection of volcanic columns with splitter cracks in between.
I call the crack sport climbs but most of them are traditionally led and lack bolts. A couple of really thin lines like To Pin or Not to Be are bolted but can be led sans bolts (just don't clip em!) and I even did that once on said line.
The place is frequented by ALL SORTS of climbers, old tradsters, skinny sportos, lots O noobs.
Funny thing is we all tend to get along. In the 15 years I've climbed there no one has seen fit to retro bolt the cracks. And most experienced climbers who visit the hole tend to sample all the charms of the area, sport to trad. Alas, sometimes sport climbers have to lead the cracks to access the goods higher up.
I mention the place for 2 reasons, 1, the notion that trad and sport cannot coexist is a refugee of the bolt wars. We all tend to get along quite well in these parts. Seems a decent amount of mutual respect has leaked out of radioactive cannisters and infected the climbing population, I don't know.
The other reason is... that acceptance of blended styles on the same cliff is decently accepted here. The Table Mtn crowd is sort of the starting point for the area in which this new crag lies.
There is a wide spectrum of climbing potential and development seperating these two areas... big walls, brush thumping bouldering, sport climbing, crack climbing etc. True wilderness designations tend to drift trad for the obvious reasons, but many of the other crags are already mixed use.
Some apply the never bolt next to a crack, others don't. I know of not one single bolt chopping incident in that 15 years, though surely it must have happened somewhere!
I don't think this particular bolt or not bolt offers any sort of controversy no matter what I decide. It is a singularity in a sense, one route. I'm not too worried about whether the place is predominately this or that. I'm not even concerned over the type of climber that may choose to visit in the future.
I think I know the types of climbers that will visit the area, many of them personally, haha. But aside from the relatively inbred scene we have going on (makes the reacharounds at campfires a family affair!), our general area has a very long history of mixed use concept.
I don't like the stick clip idea but will check it out anyway.
I really don't like the spotter / pad thing. The hike in will not encourage the mattress people atall, though there will likely be great bouldering here too. Way too far to tote a mattress to protect a sport climb, that is just taking the no bolt thing to extremes imo. (that tactic would work well closer to a road or at an area where such a route would promise controversy). I'll take a closer look at the wire possibilities. But I'm not a fan of fixed crack pro of any kind... if it has to be fixed to be safe I'll put a bolt there and smile while I'm doing it. And as I said in the OP, I intend to TR this line a few more times before deciding what to do. I've larnt the hard way that if you bolt too soon you're likely to botch the job.
Some great thoughts well presented. Thanks
DMT
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j_ung
Aug 4, 2006, 3:48 PM
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DMT, also remember, that the sticky-clip option allows for either stick clipping or a bolder (boulder?) start -- whichever the climber prefers. Here is my final word on the subject:
Here
:lol:
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bill413
Aug 4, 2006, 5:26 PM
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A most interesting debate, and an incredible lack of flames. What's wrong with RC com? And I appreciate Dingus' willingness to consider the arguments put forth.
My two cents - I agree with the poster who said he sees no reason for R or X climbs. If this thing is, indeed, unprotectable then I think it is the first ascensionist's (your) decision whether this route will be climbed by normal climbers or only the ones with more confidence than ... I.
For my part, the question is - is it really the case that the crack cannot be protected. You're there. You have the experience and know the gear available.
I enjoy routes that are mixed - I like trad, I don't mind clipping bolts or other fixed gear. It bothers me to see a bolt next to a protectable crack.
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caughtinside
Aug 4, 2006, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: My two cents - I agree with the poster who said he sees no reason for R or X climbs.
Not really the issue... Dingus already said he's going to bolt on rappel. I think it's obviously BS to bolt and R or X route on rappel. But, if you're going to do the thing ground up, that's a different case. Ground up onsight R or X routes are certainly legit (although I don't like them and don't climb them for the most part.)
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dirtineye
Aug 4, 2006, 6:13 PM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun
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billcoe_
Aug 4, 2006, 7:13 PM
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You've been climbing 20 some years.
It's your FA.
It's your area.
It's your call, use your judgment, I suspect it's at least as good as anyone else's on this board. The fact that you are thinking of this issue and asked the question only confirms it.
I bet you will put in a bolt...or 2, but you might consider using pins if you can get a little constriction and slam a knifeblade into it.
I just faced this very question myself. The thin crack was the last 20 feet of the route, but if you peeled, you'd break your ankles on the 2" ledge right below it. I put in a pin and a bolt. Didn't ask your advice. It was my FA and my area, so to speak. I did talk it over with some other active locals. You could have gotten a thin thin Ballnut in the crux, instead I fixed the pro. The other 5 routes right in that area I did were all clean. Some were runout as hell, but you wouldn't break legs, just take huge wingers if your ripped and landed on good nuts and little Aliens in thin cracks.
Have fun!
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