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brutusofwyde
Aug 8, 2006, 3:53 PM
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"Pitons don't even enter into the picture; they're aid gear. "
Except as a rough and very broad generalization, I disagree.
Pitons are climbing tools, as are cams, stoppers, hooks, and bashies. One could just as easily say hooks are aid gear, but more than one visionary climber has used hooks taped in place to protect free climbing. In some situations, some pitons can be much stronger than some bolts, particularly against shear forces.
When appropriate, sometimes I both place and use pitons on free routes. I do not encourage anyone to do so unless they are in similar situations:
Planaria on Temple Crag, California High Sierra.
Beckey Route on Red Baron Tower, S. Face Lone Pine Peak.
Japanese Route, Mt. Alberta Canada (5.6)
SE Chimney Direct on Mystery Mountain, Canada.
The jist of these routes is that, in places, there are cracks available for use, but for one reason or another, no clean protection will produce a safe, reliable anchor at the time.
Many, many other free routes in areas ranging from Yosemite to Yamnuska to Moab to Eldo to Lover's Leap to Tahquitz to the Winds are protected by in-situ pins, which I happily clip. And yes, there are climbers out there, including myself, who are establishing new routes and leaving fixed pins on them.
Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves.
It suprises me that an experienced climber like you, Jay, would get "free" and "clean" mixed up. By its very nature, a bolted route is not a clean route, it is HAFWEN.
If, on the other hand, your statement reflects your own ethics and biases, fine. I don't subscribe to them as stated, nor, obviously, do I establish routes by your rules.
Cheers,
Brutus
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dingus
Aug 8, 2006, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves.
http://img380.imageshack.us/...3758imgmediumzq1.jpg
This was right BEFORE you placed the head...
In reply to: If, on the other hand, your statement reflects your own ethics and biases, fine. I don't subscribe to them as stated, nor, obviously, do I establish routes by your rules.
Glad you saw this thread buddy (Brutus is the partner who suggested a pin for the very crack in question). As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be, but the responses were useful anyway.
What was more useful was watching you and Miwok fire ground up FAs on back to back weekends. 7 Up Crack and now Militant Crack. The insurrection has begun.
I'll be up there Sat Brutus. Feel free to join me.
DMT
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jt512
Aug 8, 2006, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: It suprises me that an experienced climber like you, Jay, would get "free" and "clean" mixed up. By its very nature, a bolted route is not a clean route, it is HAFWEN.
I did not mix up the terms "free" and "clean," but I wonder if you've mixed up the words "sport" and "trad." Neither bolts nor pitons are clean, but bolts are cleaner, and more reliable (I'm sure you can think of exceptions, but I doubt that the route in question is one of them). The suggestion to place a fixed pin in a feature rather than drill a bolt, on a route that is RAP BOLTED anyway, seems absurd. It's a sport route. Bolt it!
Jay
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brutusofwyde
Aug 9, 2006, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sometimes I've even used copperheads to protect free moves. Glad you saw this thread buddy (Brutus is the partner who suggested a pin for the very crack in question). As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be, but the responses were useful anyway. What was more useful was watching you and Miwok fire ground up FAs on back to back weekends. 7 Up Crack and now Militant Crack. The insurrection has begun. I'll be up there Sat Brutus. Feel free to join me. DMT
Dingus, if you keep posting old pictures of me like that one, some young'uns might take my ramblings as something other than the spittle out of the mouth of a washed up old man. Rest assured, I haven't done anything like that in a long, long time.
Wish I could join you this weekend, Dingus, but Ratchet and I have a date with a double dihedral somewhere.
Hope you get that baby nicely bolted so we can lay this heart-rending moral dilemna to rest.
Brutus "TAKE! er.... I mean Tension!... uhh... UP ROPE DAMMIT!"
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dingus
Aug 9, 2006, 2:14 AM
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A double dihedral eh? Is that with 2 capital D's, somewhere in the Hoover?
If so it has a lovely off width on it, you'll love it. If its not that one... never mind!
DMT
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dingus
Aug 9, 2006, 3:23 PM
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In reply to: mmmm.... double Ds.... Oops, but I digress. In reply to: As I'm sure you noted I didn't fully descibe the starting situation on the route to be... Okay, why don't you let the rest of the cat out of the bag, Mr Toast. GO
Nah. No mystery or anything. It isn't important. I like the many ideas floated in this thread. Will check some of them out. Others aren't so practical due to those missing details, but that's cool.
Cheers
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 9, 2006, 7:45 PM
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What, like the fact that in reality this all happened three years ago, and after going ahead and grid bolting it, you came back to find someone had pooped on your stuff?
G:lol:
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edl
Aug 11, 2006, 8:56 AM
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I don't know if you already made a decision, but I thought I would chime in. If I thumb through my PALNT (Practically Applicable Leave No Trace) handbook I find that you should leave potential mixed routes as r, x, pg, etc. if in a predominantly traditional area, which this sounds like it will be. However, it seems as if we are talking about a short crack to an incredible potential sport climb, which according to the PALNT handbook are ok to exist at trad areas. Fuck, this is a hard one, or maybe not. Since said crack is only 15 feet tall, I share the opinion that no bolt needs to be placed here, considering there is a good clipping stance at the top of the crack. If so, slap the bolt in at that clipping stance and then tastefully bolt it to the top (tastefully bolted according to edl: Safe, but not a bolt every fucking meter.) If there are features above said crack that can be safely slung/otherwise protected, don't put a bolt there. I know, I know, the PALNT handbook specifically says that mixed routes should be left unbolted at traditional areas, but that book was written by a total dumbass, and like any handbook, it is only a general guide. So if you want to bolt the unprotectable parts of a mixed climb at a trad area, and you know it's not someones headpoint project, I say go for it. As you say, local ethics RULE, and I would agree, at least up to a point. Sounds like that would make a great climb at your described area. More tricky would be if there is no good clipping stance at the top of the crack, which you haven't said if there is or isn't. So question for you:
Is there a good clipping stance at the top of the crack? If not, how high is the first clipping stance?
BTW: It sounds as if you have a pretty cool community there Dingus.
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healyje
Aug 11, 2006, 11:42 AM
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Actually just riding this one out observing given it's Dingus - he has lots of wisdom, but is also a contrary motherf#cker and loves both trolling and shifting with the wind just to see if he can fan a fire.
But "Area", "Development", "giving back", "community" all are words that somewhat pain me a bit about today's scene. First off, by definition they always mean fixing pro is what it's explicitly about upfront. Second, they relegate routes to a role of somewhat lesser status and importance than the crag / area [/developer] itself. You see it all the time these days: "developers" and "community service" professionals get to a new crag with an agenda that is usually driven by the [surely] need to provide a good "plate" or selection of routes ("bolt it and they will come") necessary for a "popular" crag and one that will represent your "legacy". Well, call me old fashion - 1 route or 1000 - the crag is an empty vessel as far as I'm concerned; I don't care about the overall end state of a crag or area. All I care about is one route at a time if, and as, they grab my eye. I treat every route I do as if it were the only route that existed there - the state of any other climb has no bearing whatsoever on the one I'm doing now.
I just did a reasonably hard free FA a few days back that required major cleaning (moss, lots of dirt, and a few significant rocks), one bolt (the only protection bolt I've placed in 32 years), two permanent bugs (Jay - those are a type of piton) all done on lead, but led the rest of the route above choss world on equalized rp's, crack'N ups, loweballs, and the smallest hybrid aliens. A route 10 feet away might get an entirely different mix (though I don't and won't do sport routes). My personal ethic is gear > pins > bolts as an absolutely dead last resort to be avoided if humanly possible and each route is treated as an incredibly unique gift and opportunity.
I've also walk away from a fair number of potential FA's because, as Brutus says, I wasn't up to it at the moment; or there was plenty of other lines without the hassles; or I decided to leave it a TR (sport climbing is about not letting all the stuff get in the way of the moves after all and what's less X rated than a tope rope...). If a climb presented this much of a dilemna and there were other interesting things about I'd probably walk away myself. But that's just me. Oh, and personally, I just don't see how you're going to find the time to do this anyway between the demands of work, family, and helping Jay bolt all the cracks on Astroman (there are no ethics afterall).
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dingus
Aug 11, 2006, 3:01 PM
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In reply to: Actually just riding this one out observing given it's Dingus - he has lots of wisdom, but is also a contrary motherf#cker and loves both trolling and shifting with the wind just to see if he can fan a fire.
Hmmm, you're right of course but Brutus would tell you (if he weren't off on another adventure) that this is no troll.
OK, giving back to the community doesn't have to include fixed pro.
Example: I've been lucky, fabulously lucky (we make our luck in large measure, I have worked to live where its still possible and I've brush thumped more n' most weekend warriors to flesh out that luck) to achieve these opportunities.
Twice in the last few years I have 'found' significant unclimbed objectives; a huge alpine face of unbelievable proportions and now a cragging area where a conservative guess places the potential at over 100 routes, vast majority of them cracks.
In the case of the alpine face, mum's the word. We've kept that close to the chest and will continue to do so... we're greedy bastards hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
But in the case of the cragging area, well, I want to share it with my friends and those who have done the same with me. I am fortunate enough to live near a climbing Mecca, I can day drive and climb in Yosemite. But I been doing that for 20 years.... this may sound odd but it gets stale after a while. Punter like me or rock star alike, most eventually move on to fresher pastures.
Within 100 miles of Yosemite north and south, there is so much unclimbed rock it boggles the mind. One trouble bat men... very hard to get too.
With some places climbers far superior to me have literally driven past them for years, looked up at them and said to themselves (for the umpteenth time), 'someday I'm gonna go up there and look around.'
Well... that someday was earlier this year. I brush thumped to something hundreds of climbers had glimpsed, and realized aaaaaa AAAAAA! Thars gold in them thar hills.
But the area in question is a quiet back water where almost all new routes include a lot of hard work... getting there, what have you. And these people, some of whom I know personally, others only by reputation and their routes, have seen fit to share their beta.
I could 'horde' this cragging area to myself and a handful of close friends. I decided in this case that is not the right thing to do.
You will just have to trust me when I say this isn't a sport cragging area, it is primarily crack cragging. You'll just have to trust me that the few sport routes I have seen fit to bolt... have turned out pretty good. I have only done a handful actually.
It is not a religious matter for me and I don't care if it contributes to a Disneyland amusement mentality; I don't. Its not going to get out of hand at this place anyway. "Real" sport climbers wouldn't be interested frankly.
But enough of us psuedosport climbers (I like that) WILL, and a majority of us don't seem to mind clipping rap placed bolts for a good face route. Its in keeping with local ethics, it is.
OK, thus far there are two routes done, both are cracks and both went in (up) ground up with no fixed pro. So we're off to a good start Joe.
Here's Miwok on the FA of Militant Crack, check out the angle of the tag line! Anyway, it was... "Look at THAT CRACK! Let's CLIMB IT!" And starting at the bottom and not stopping till he belly flopped onto the ledge at the lip of that roof there. PROUD.
http://img472.imageshack.us/.../img3357largelj7.jpg
And my Friend Brutus of Wyde, on the FA of 7-Up Crack, the First First Ascent at this new place:
http://img513.imageshack.us/...img3293mediumtg0.jpg
We'll pick a few plums and gradually open'R up. The give back part isn't the routes Joe, its the POTENTIAL for routes.
Cheers bro, luv ya
DMT
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dbrayack
Aug 11, 2006, 3:48 PM
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Bolt the crap outa it!
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dirtineye
Aug 18, 2006, 2:07 AM
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Fvck you very much, it's been fun.
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healyje
Aug 18, 2006, 7:39 AM
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Dingus, I have every faith whatever you do it will be the best of both worlds...
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clausti
Aug 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
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In reply to: LOL, you know so much about FAs, and pins, and bolts, you have no way to evaluate what I said, kid.
my knowledge, or lack thereof, -speaking of people lacking ways to evaluate things- of FA's, or pins, doesnt have a lot of bearing on my opinion about a BOLT on a SPORT CLIMB. sport climbing being, as you might have infered, something i have done once or possibly twice.
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dingus
Aug 18, 2006, 3:30 PM
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A Ti pin goddamnit!
clausti you're not even qualified to read those words my dear. In fact, you shouldn't even be reading this post. So stop it.
I said stop it!
DMT
The answer to protect this crack I've never seen (and never will ) is so obviously a Ti pin goddamnit (even though someone will steal it) it makes me crazy just thinking about it.
I'm crazy... for luvin you.
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caughtinside
Aug 21, 2006, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: A Ti pin goddamnit! clausti you're not even qualified to read those words my dear. In fact, you shouldn't even be reading this post. So stop it. I said stop it! DMT The answer to protect this crack I've never seen (and never will ) is so obviously a Ti pin goddamnit (even though someone will steal it) it makes me crazy just thinking about it. I'm crazy... for luvin you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think I'm qualified to post some laughing emoticons. Can I get a judges ruling?
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golsen
Aug 23, 2006, 2:46 AM
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dingus, just be fair. What do I mean by that?
Ground up, on-sight is as fair as it gets. If someone wants to do that on the FA and leave no trace (X), thats fair.
Starting on the top and rapping down drilling obligates the FA team to not add additional danger to the route since they got to TR it first. Make sense? So in this regard, since it is the 1st 15 feet it is close to the ground. It aint very high, it surely does not need much to protect it safely. Also, anyone attempting the route can clearly see what is there in those 1st 15 feet. I would lean towards a stick clippable bolt fairly high up. Hard men can simply climb up to it. Why not a pin? If the pin were absolutely bomber, then maybe. But my good friend used some pins cuz he could on a FA. A few years of weathering later some dude took a really nice ride whn those pins pulled. He lived, but if you are talking a sport route you'd be doing everyone a favor by just sinking the bolt now. Otherwise in a few years we will be having the debate "can we replace a pin with a bolt" and tying up bandwidth. Besides, that way we can flame you for bolting cracks...
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tradklime
Aug 23, 2006, 5:28 AM
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In reply to: My personal ethic is gear > pins > bolts as an absolutely dead last resort to be avoided if humanly possible and each route is treated as an incredibly unique gift and opportunity.
Since this thread is winding down and dingus already grid bloted the entire cliff, someone, especially healyje, want to break down the logic in this. Honestly, I don't want to imply that there is a right or wrong to this, just that I have a very different opinion in that I absolutely don't get the piton before bolt thing. ( I very much agree with gear before fixed pro, in most cases)
My thought, if you are going to place fixed pro, you might as well place the most reliable, consistent, least impacting to the climbing option available, aka BOLT. Maybe it's my own personal experience climbing in areas with freeze thaw issues etc., but pitons just don't hold up over time if you don't reset them often with a hammer or replace them. And, drum roll please, they do impact the rock more than a bolt. Exhibit A, Serenity crack. Over time resetting and replacement of pitons result in larger holds, or holes in a crack. In many occasions this has allowed climbs to go free at an easier grade, eg. The Naked Edge (Eldo) first pitch. Now IF this climb that had been protected, or accended, as a bolt ladder originally, it would currently be a much more difficult pitch, and more consistent with it's original state.
Overall, my opinion on fixed pro is that it should be placed with the intent that it will be as good for future climbers as it was for the first accent party, as much as possible/ practical, and nine times out of ten this mean to bolt.
Bolts are usually easy to replace using the previous hole. Holes can be filled in easily and disguised without changing the nature of the climb. They don't create better holds (finger locks). What am I missing???
Pitons: aid, alpine, mixed. Craggin', no way.
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golsen
Sep 2, 2006, 3:25 AM
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tradklime,
I cant speak for healyje but here is where I used to come from and sometimes still do. I started climbing in the 70's and when sport came around my buds and me that did some FA sport routes were still looking for minimal impact. Back then it was believed that fixed pins were less impact than bolts. I relate totally to healyje's logic as I had the same logic 20 years ago.
However, it became clear to my friends and I that in some types of rock fixed pins were time bombs waiting to happen. My friend put up a great 5.12a back then that was protected with pins and a bolts. A couple years later some guy fell and ripped out the pins and took a wild ride. He replaced the pins with bolts after that. I think that this logic is trying to rely on the natural features that the rock is providing instead of slamming in a bolt. Back then we had no idear how popular climbing would be, nor did we have an idea that hangdogging and working routes would be so prevalent. I still feel that in some situations a fixed pin is more respectful of the rock than simply drilling a hole. But the weathering and life of the pin should also be factored into it. Anyway, thats just my take on it...
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dan_gerous1
Sep 2, 2006, 5:45 AM
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One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer:(
Old school ethics respected, I enjoy most trad/sport routes, but also have seen some retro-ed so other ascensionists can enjoy the fa's route safely.
It is a topic for great discussion no doubt.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 2, 2006, 10:43 AM
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If it takes a bomber lost arrow do that if not bolt it or bolt it for a stick clip. If the pin is at all questionable bolt it.
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zach510
Sep 11, 2006, 6:53 AM
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If its possible to bolt ground-up, you have an obligation to bolt ground up, IMHO. If you're not up to it, maybe give the project to a talented young climber who could benefit from the experience.
And ground-up will really make it an experience, rather than just a quick 'bolt and send' mission.
If its a great line, it will get repeated and remembered by its name, not as "that 5.whatever".
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dingus
Sep 11, 2006, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: If its possible to bolt ground-up, you have an obligation to bolt ground up, IMHO. If you're not up to it, maybe give the project to a talented young climber who could benefit from the experience. And ground-up will really make it an experience, rather than just a quick 'bolt and send' mission. If its a great line, it will get repeated and remembered by its name, not as "that 5.whatever".
What obligation? To whom?
DMT
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jajen
Sep 12, 2006, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: One question you may want to explore is how you would feel if you heard someone decked and got seriously hurt on the start to this climb. With little rope out you are looking at a factor 2 fall, and on thin gear, chances are,,, serious bummer
Do you even understand what a factor 2 fall is???
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