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ter_bee
Aug 9, 2006, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: And, honestly, I don't think [collegekid] actually has any valid points. In reply to: but i can't find a thread where you address the actual facts anywhere. i will focus on the war primarily here: you seem to think we will "win" the iraq war; you think the quality of life in the us justifies staying here in spite of our behavior toward the rest of the world; and you (very correctly) note that leaving doesn't solve any problems. but do you ever address the issues? what do you think of the WMD fiasco now? the behavior of our troops towards civillians? the likely consequences for our side when they are captured? Several replies to this, and I'm afraid none of them will pacify or please you. Despite the lack of WMDs I still feel that getting Sadaam out of power and giving the Iraqi population a chance at a better way was a good thing. Yes, it's costly. Yes, it's ugly. Yes, it's difficult. But, and I think you can agree to this, as America we have a moral and ethical obligation to help end suffering and oppression and genocide... wherever it might be. Anyone that thinks Iraq was a garden paradise before and is only a s--- hole because we invaded is delusional. I abhor the stories of torture and rape and massacres of civilians by a few members of our military. But I also understand that this is most assuredly the exception, not the rule, as there are numerous stories of our troops acting honorably. I also believe in the presumption of innocence, and will not declare anyone guilty of anything until they are found so by a court of law. If you had to sum up my total view of Iraq in one sentence, it'd be this: It was worth doing, but we have made some serious tactical and strategic errors in the execution of it.
thanks for replying sincerely. i'm surprised to hear your opinion of collegekid's list. seemed riddled with facts to me. although given the fact that he hasn't been back to participate, seems like kind of a troll.
regarding the presumption of innocence: do you presume innocence of people who never get a trial? many of our prisoners, for example?
after seeing our example, do you think iraqis want a democracy? i wouldn't.
one final note: CONGRATULATIONS PAOLO!!!!!!!!!! I hope you're never sorry you did it.
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tradman
Aug 9, 2006, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: I still feel that getting Sadaam out of power and giving the Iraqi population a chance at a better way was a good thing.
I imagine most people would agree that killing the government, occupying the country and telling the population that if they don't vote in a new one we'll stay in their country, guaranteeing the deaths of even more civilians to add to the 40,000 who have already died, could hardly be called "a good thing".
In the same way, I think most people would recognise that it's not democracy either.
In reply to: as America we have a moral and ethical obligation to help end suffering and oppression and genocide
I'm intrigued: could you flesh out why your nationality implies a moral and ethical obligation?
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chalkfree
Aug 9, 2006, 2:38 PM
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I hate to actually agree with reno, but as one of the bigger fellas in the room we are obliged to protect the littler guys. I don't think that's what we've done, and I don't think that's the way our government views it, but that's what I think.
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chalkfree
Aug 9, 2006, 4:20 PM
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The real question is somewhat more confusing though.
Are we as the big dude obligated to stay the big guy? Are we supposed to keep the little guys from lifting to get bigger? We are you know, judging a coutry's character and then deciding if they are allowed to join the big kids' nuclear club.
Personally I think we're not the one's that should be entrusted with those decisions. I know the UN is supposed to do it, but the word "unilateral" always springs to mind when I think of our relationship with the UN.
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robbovius
Aug 9, 2006, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: For that matter why wasn't he killed 10 years before? They knew he was a bastard then didn't they?
in the first Reagan admin, Saddam was Our Friend, we helped him out and encouraged him against the Iranians, after the revolution that ousted the Shah, who was an oppressive tyrant. there's a picture from that time, of DOn RUmsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, a bunch of other dignitaries around, everybody smiling... it's creepy...
then of course, in the aftermath of the Iran-contra scandal, in which we, America, DOUBLE-CROSSED our friend Saddam by helping out the Iranians, covertly, against Iraq, who we were alos helping, he thought we were assholes, and rightfully so. thus did he become our enemy.
Saddam's not the only jerk around. not even the worst. the number of Iraqi citizens he tortured and killed comes nowhere near to the numbers that died in the Rwandan genocide. which we did nothing about, becasue well they're black, and have nothing we want. Sorry.
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slablizard
Aug 9, 2006, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: For that matter why wasn't he killed 10 years before? They knew he was a bastard then didn't they? in the first Reagan admin, Saddam was Our Friend, we helped him out and encouraged him against the Iranians, after the revolution that ousted the Shah, who was an oppressive tyrant. there's a picture from that time, of DOn RUmsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, a bunch of other dignitaries around, everybody smiling... it's creepy... then of course, in the aftermath of the Iran-contra scandal, in which we, America, DOUBLE-CROSSED our friend Saddam by helping out the Iranians, covertly, against Iraq, who we were alos helping, he thought we were assholes, and rightfully so. thus did he become our enemy. Saddam's not the only jerk around. not even the worst. the number of Iraqi citizens he tortured and killed comes nowhere near to the numbers that died in the Rwandan genocide. which we did nothing about, becasue well they're black, and have nothing we want. Sorry.
Arming Iraq
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bobd1953
Aug 9, 2006, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: Reno wrote:Perhaps they'll be proven right as history judges. Perhaps not. But the last part is correct: We have to finish the job.
And just what is the "finish job" in Iraq? If you know you might let our current leaders in on that secret.
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feanor007
Aug 9, 2006, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: When they started thinking jesus was the messiah I start thinking of them as converts
i have several classes with a girl who would take you to town for saying that.
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reno
Aug 9, 2006, 11:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: as one of the bigger fellas in the room we are obliged to protect the littler guys. I don't think that's what we've done, and I don't think that's the way our government views it, but that's what I think. I'd agree with that. Those who have the means should protect those who need it. However, I'm sure it's obvious to everybody that we haven't protected the Iraqi people from anything - not WMDs, not oppression and torture, and certainly not from being killed.
Then your objection is to the execution of the plan, and not the plan itself.
Which is pretty much what I said above. And what Hillary Clinton said. And Lieberman. ;)
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zozo
Aug 10, 2006, 1:06 AM
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In reply to: But, and I think you can agree to this, as America we have a moral and ethical obligation to help end suffering and oppression and genocide... wherever it might be.
So you were in favor of what Clinton did in Yugoslavia then? Glad to hear it!! The following is a partial list of other places in the world that we should also be invading if you wish to be consistant with the statement above........
Sudan
Cuba
Rwanda
Iran
Pakistan
China
Saudia Arabia
Libya
Egypt
Palestine
Somalia
North Korea
North Vietnam
Malyasia
Indonesia
Venezuala
Okay Reno, where do we start?
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reno
Aug 10, 2006, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: Okay Reno, where do we start?
Let's start where we can end up with the most good for the most people. You know, think long-term strategical, rather than short term tactical.
Zozo: Couple questions here for you to consider: What country has, historically, been among the most volatile in the middle east, sponsored terrorism and violence towards many other countries, and is controlled by fanatical religious zealots?
Now, what two countries are on either side of that country?
You don't need to answer here... just mull it over for a bit while sipping your triple vanilla soy decaf machiatto. Think long term. ;)
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zozo
Aug 10, 2006, 4:01 AM
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Your riddle is S far to complicated A for my mocha sucking, R new york times reading, Ned C Lammont suporting feeble A brain to comprehend. S This is cool Reno, we are finally on the same page and in total M agreement on everything. No tell me oh wise one, where and how do we pay for this world view of yours?
And since I bet this plan will take a few years, how many of your own kids will you be willing to put up for the task ahead?
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reno
Aug 10, 2006, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: Your riddle is S far to complicated A for my mocha sucking, R new york times reading, Ned C Lammont suporting feeble A brain to comprehend. S This is cool Reno, we are finally on the same page and in total M agreement on everything. No tell me oh wise one, where and how do we pay for this world view of yours?
Zozo, I'm not quite sure if you're being serious or not.... I've got a nasty red wine hangover, and can't see straight. Can you spell it out for me? ;)
In reply to: And since I bet this plan will take a few years, how many of your own kids will you be willing to put up for the task ahead?
Well, considering I don't have kids, and don't plan on having any, that's a rather silly question. Unless you know something that my missus hasn't bothered to tell me yet.... :shock:
(In which case, I'm going to start drinking again.... heavily.)
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boulder_junky
Aug 11, 2006, 3:35 AM
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Well I'm with reno, personally. I think that we do have the moral obligation to help the people in those situations and that we have to start somewhere. His criteria make sense to me. And I don't know about children I will contribute but I may start with myself.
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robbovius
Aug 11, 2006, 11:19 AM
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In reply to: ....Well, considering I don't have kids, and don't plan on having any....)
ahhhhhhhh! and THUS is Reno's essential narscissistic self-absorption revealed...
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reno
Aug 11, 2006, 12:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ....Well, considering I don't have kids, and don't plan on having any....) ahhhhhhhh! and THUS is Reno's essential narscissistic self-absorption revealed...
Huh?
I'm self-absorbed and narscissistic because I don't want to have children?
Well, OK.
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bigvalleyboulderer
Aug 11, 2006, 2:41 PM
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Just curious, have any of you ever been in the military??
and if so, is that why your views have changed??
or haven't they changed at all
im not the biggest bush fan but i think he was the best dickhead for the job....
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collegekid
Aug 12, 2006, 1:24 AM
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response to the path this thread has taken:
1. I was tarpitted for the past week, and hence could not post responses.
2. People that believe "end of the world" (i.e. coming of christ or whatever) scenarios frighten me. To a certain extent, what we believe becomes reality (i.e. believe in landing on the moon = achieve it; believe you suck at climbing = you suck at climbing). I personally believe that humans are capable of great things when they commit themselves to it--this is why I have devoted my education towards the persuit of alternative energy and solving humanity's technical problems. I beleive that there is no reason for any sort of "armageddon", with the level of technical ability and vast resources of knowledge that we currently posses.
3. If you believe in a given religion, be it the flying spaghetti monster or Christ, nobody can convince you otherwise; however, if you take in facts and make decisions based on evidence, then you can be convinced otherwise. The former is how the Dark Ages came to be; the latter how today's technology (and hence, wealth, health, and population) came to be. You decide what you want--enlightenment, and improved health and wealth, or your irrational, "everything is black and white, good and evil" beliefs, and suffering for the masses.
4. Gore was most likely a self-serving politician, just like many other democrats. However, I still don't see how ANY politician could possibly be as bad as Bush is. He is, by far, the worst president in the history of this country, and his polling numbers reflect that (35% approval?)
I am done with this thread. If you still support the war, nobody's going to change that. If you think the end of the world is coming, enjoy having the freedom to believe what you want. Me on the other hand--I'm going to do my best to help the world, starting with helping in the design of a fusion reactor, and using as little fossil-fuel based energy as possible (including riding my bike to work and school, as I've been doing for the past year).
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