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brad
Sep 2, 2006, 1:01 AM
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Does anybody know of any independent labs/shops that will pull test aliens? I'd like to get mine tested, and I think I'd rather not have CCH do it. Brad
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antiqued
Sep 2, 2006, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: tgreene, .... So here is what I want to know: - What specific steps has CCH taken to test axle brazes and how is this different from the previous process? - What steps has CCH taken to verify cam head shape and axle holes and how is this different from the previous process? ....... This latest Alien thread seems on the verge of being hijacked by personal attacks on tgreene. I think they are misplaced, and they are the wrong way to go. The right way to go is to ask for information from CCH directly. So I tried that already! I emailed CCH over a week ago with several questions in the mode of Murf's, above, or more like dalguard's earlier. Like the news media most of us deplore, without real information to report, the RC.com fashion leaders generate suppositions, hypotheses and speculation. Then we segue into thread stealing and accusations. Somehow, the accusations are going against the visible 'voice' of CCH. CCH should have its own voice, but that lack is not tgreene's fault. What about the OP? How has he escaped wrath? Did he post photos of the failed cam? Correct the original error in date? Confirm that the manufacturer had been contacted? Well, he's waiting for permission from the accident victim, who perhaps hasn't recovered enough yet to take this on. So anyway, I emailed CCH 8 days ago. I have had no response at all. They don't know me, and they have other things on their mind. In the absence of info from the OP or the accident victim, I would guess that tracking this down, and testing customer's returned cams are higher on their priority list. It looks to me as if their website hasn't been touched since the dimple recall, and they don't read their email. If I cant get information from them, maybe I can get it from you! I've tried to get a poll going so we can have more confidence in Aliens. Hey! It looks like it worked! If you had non-dimpled Aliens pull tested, let us know!
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dalguard
Sep 2, 2006, 1:57 AM
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I'm not sure what we're mad at Tim about. Whether he's in CCH's corner or not (and frankly, I'm in CCH's corner. I'd love to find out this is much ado about nothing and my beloved cams are perfectly safe to use), the information he's provided has been all we've gotten. Who we're mad at is CCH for allowing a "volunteer" to handle their investigative work as well as their PR work. CCH needs to make some official statements, here or elsewhere, even if it's only "we're looking into it." Now stop yelling at Tim. And Tim, stop trying to make up for what CCH isn't doing because, until they start paying you, you can't.
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golsen
Sep 2, 2006, 2:31 AM
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poor tim. I wasnt yelling at him, it is unfortunate that if someone disagrees with him he runs off, but that aint my problem. I was aware of healyje's efforts on the first Alien go-around and he did an admirable job of not getting crossed up in that line that tgreene tripped over here. I highly respect healyje and agree most of the time with what he posts. (Call it a fondness for other old guys, no not that fond....) I have no beef with tim or anyone else here except CCH. tgreene does not represent CCH, he said that himself. He has no legal agreement to represent CCH. He seemed to want to stick himself there, thats his deal. In terms of any actual communications from CCH with regards to this issue, I have not found any. NONE.....ZILCH.... In fact, the info on their web site regarding their other incident is also sub-standard. Part of my job involves incident investigation as a professional engineer. I help investigate accidents. Right now, some aliens are an accident waiting to happen. Regardless of their superior design for certain placements, CCH aliens are not being manufactured in a way that minimizes defects. OK, sh&& happens to us all. But it is how CCH deals with these issues that will make or break them. Getting a volunteer for their PR work is not a confidence building move. "Hey Tim, we'll give you a rack of free aliens if you put on your flame resistant suit". Dumb move? Maybe not. CCH is able to try and convey whatever message they want; however, if these claims are called into question (like during a lawsuit) they can deny any such thing... What we are talking about is not your beloved aliens. Who the f&&& cares. It is about some climber like each of us who trusted CCH to do a job and it failed him. And now, that person may have sustained life altering injuries. And the scary thing is, it could have been anyone. Whay am I bent out of shape with CCH (and REI BTW). I am particularly pissed because I had some Aliens during that last debacle and I returned them. I bought about 7 of the puppies recently and have been climbing on them. That makes me pissed that CCH takes my life with such little regard that they cant inform me (officially) via some method other than a volunteer being paid by a rack of them...Cheap bastards...
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blankslate
Sep 2, 2006, 2:46 AM
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let me give some useful advice here: If you want a response, Phone Dave and the CCH office directly! their tel. number is not difficult to locate. if you sit on your butt and write and email and then expect them to come to your service, you only have yourself to blame. don't be lazy, just go after it. here are maybe some less useful words: CCH is not a computer or PR-savvy unit. tgreene just did some investigation on the OP's claims. he illuminated the situation well. i look forward to seeing the new and more informative website. if i can figure out how to get my aliens pull-tested, so can you.
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tgreene
Sep 2, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: poor tim. I wasnt yelling at him, it is unfortunate that if someone disagrees with him he runs off, but that aint my problem. What's unfortunate, is that it's absolutely impossible to ever provide satisfying answers to a lynch mob, no matter how openly and honestly these questions have been answered. Case in point is the paragraphs below, where my honest answers have ever so typically been spun into something that serves your own purposes.
In reply to: "Hey Tim, we'll give you a rack of free aliens if you put on your flame resistant suit". Quite wrong actually! I agreed to redesign thier website in exchange for a set of cams, and this agreement was made before all hell broke loose.
In reply to: Now, for 100% absolute complete clarification, I have not been paid a dime by CCH for involving myself in this whole process, nor do I expect to ever be. However, once the aire has cleared, I will be developing a new website for them in exchange for 1 complete set of Aliens....
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golsen
Sep 2, 2006, 3:41 AM
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sorry to hurt your feelings tim. Looks like we are both guilty. If you read my posts you will see where my anger is directed. However, YOU wanted it tim. You want to be their voice so WTF do you expect?
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billcoe_
Sep 2, 2006, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: If you read my posts you will see where my anger is directed. However, YOU wanted it tim. You want to be their voice so WTF do you expect? I thought that Tim Greene was seeking answers - like the rest of us. The fact that he called the company directly and has tried to communicate what he has learned to help us understand the intracacies of the situation is quite admirable. That he wants to help out CCH is admirable as well. I'm sure cch is inundated right now, they are trying to get the info out there and change the web site. Their shop will be filling up with recalled parts for testing soon, and it would be nice to know the testing modalities and intracacies of the testing aparatus, but why not send them back and let them test them: they will sort this out and move on. Ignoring peoples emails: horribly bad form on their part (even a blanket form letter statement explaining how busy they are right now would be better) . Not getting the site updated: wretchly lame. Trust with that company is low for many of you, and deservedly so. What can you say? Send your cams in and let your friends know (or anyone you bump into at the crags for that matter) to send them in as well. BTW, doesn't look like a dimple on the pic to me. They seemed to have been stamped on the ball- the best place for it: not the stem, where a hard slam with a punch could have weakened the unit. Regards to all: Bill
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tgreene
Sep 2, 2006, 4:17 AM
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Correction, nobody wants to take heat like this, ever! Keep in mind that there's a vast difference between lighting a fire in a crowded theater, and running into that same theater in an attempt to battle the flames...
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mowz
Sep 2, 2006, 4:29 AM
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I don't see what the fuss is. So what if Tim did work for CCH? How does that make a difference in terms of CCH being responsible for the production of "bad" camming units? Why does it matter that Tim is getting a set of cams in exchange for redesigning CCH's website? So what if Tim worked for CCH and pointed out that BD and other companies had problems? Why would it matter? The heart of the matter is Tim acted as the middle man in the delivering of CCH's response to the problem at hand and he did a fine job in relaying that message to the RC.com community in a timely fashion. Who really gives a fuck what Tim does for who? CCH responded to the matter and that's it.
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the_mitt
Sep 2, 2006, 4:36 AM
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I think that being mad at Tim is kinda lame. Its like yelling at your TV set for something bad that you have seen on it. Tim has come out, not as a speaker for CCH but a conduit which information is passed. Granted I probably would not have used the word "we" when passing the info but that's semantics really. I am really not that pissed about the original defect, happens all the time to the best companies. Its how they recover that matters, in this case and really all cases CCH did not recover well. I have called CCH and asked several of the questions that were posted here. I really got nowhere, except told that all were being tested and if I really did not trust the company to buy elsewhere. They were not willing to be straightforward about expanding the recall and again not really helpful. So I think if we are looking for info straight from the company we are not going to get it. Ultimately it comes to the decision to continue to buy from CCH and hope they have turned things around or don't and they go under. If they go under hopefully someone buys their patent, if not save your working aliens for when it counts. Mitt Like a bad Seinfeld episode "what ya think is that route alien worthy?"
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billcoe_
Sep 2, 2006, 4:57 AM
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used up my trophies on the last 2 posts, great pics Mowz dude! Mitt, thanks for the words and the truth. It does paint CCH as a real lame company...but after I get them tested I'll be climbing on em. Nice to hear you took a shot.
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golsen
Sep 2, 2006, 5:47 AM
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Disagreement is not anger. I have no beef with tim. My perception was that tim wanted to ride a white horse with nice shiny armour and found out his trusty steed was a jackass...
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tgreene
Sep 2, 2006, 1:31 PM
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Or maybe what I've discovered, is that many of you are filled with a vitriolic poison...
In reply to: One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river. The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back. Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream. "Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?" "Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly. "Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!" Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!" "This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!" "Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog. "Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!" So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current. Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs. "You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?" The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back. "I could not help myself. It is my nature." Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
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leavingne
Sep 4, 2006, 5:21 AM
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Tim, thanks for posting the pics and providing some info. That guillotined Alien head is horrifying. I hope to never see something like that in person. I trust that you have good intentions, want the skinny on the gear you use, and are trying to do good for the climbing community. I hope it does some good for CCH too, because I like their cams. But, like you said,
In reply to: Yes, I question everything! Me too. Let me make some very cynical hypotheses: 1. CCH has legal and financial representation (perhaps a lawyer and an accountant). 2. Recalls are expensive. 3. Recalls damage reputation as some people will not trust a product or company with too many recalls. 4. CCH would like to avoid a recall if it's not necessary. 5. CCH has found a means to unofficially encourage people to send in Aliens not covered by the recall description. 6. CCH can test these units and then decide whether or not to expand the scope of the recall (remember the equation from Fight Club?). 7. Since Tim is not an official representative of CCH, if they choose not to expand the recall they can always claim that Tim was not acting in an official capacity on their behalf when he posted the statement to this thread. Perhaps in a week there will be a message from cchaliens asking that people stop sending in non-dimpled Aliens as they are not affected by the recall. 8. "We can't update our website" and "RC.com won't let us post, Tim, could you do it for us?" -- two necessary ingredients for this hypothetical scheme to work. Didn't they just update their website a few months ago? It just sounds suspicious, like a lawyer is telling them not to say anything official about this. OK, that's all hypothesis. I should do my due dilligence by contacting CCH to find out: 1. Did they see the statement Tim published on their behalf? 2. Did they authorize Tim to publish that statement? 3. Are they expanding the recall to non-dimpled units or different production dates? 4. Are they unable to comment officially due to ongoing litigation? Maybe I will call on Tuesday. Then I can form conclusions.
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curt
Sep 4, 2006, 5:41 AM
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The best thing for everyone at this point, would be for CCH to get out of the cam manufacturing business. I have little doubt they could sell their product line to another, more technologically advanced manufacturing company. Curt
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worldtraveler
Sep 4, 2006, 3:08 PM
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I don't know if there is any company that would be interested in buying CCH, especially in light of the current bad PR surrounding the company and product. Good luck Dave and CCH, godspeed.
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ter_bee
Sep 4, 2006, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: Tim, thanks for posting the pics and providing some info. That guillotined Alien head is horrifying. I hope to never see something like that in person. I trust that you have good intentions, want the skinny on the gear you use, and are trying to do good for the climbing community. I hope it does some good for CCH too, because I like their cams. But, like you said, In reply to: Yes, I question everything! Me too. Let me make some very cynical hypotheses: 1. CCH has legal and financial representation (perhaps a lawyer and an accountant). 2. Recalls are expensive. 3. Recalls damage reputation as some people will not trust a product or company with too many recalls. 4. CCH would like to avoid a recall if it's not necessary. 5. CCH has found a means to unofficially encourage people to send in Aliens not covered by the recall description. 6. CCH can test these units and then decide whether or not to expand the scope of the recall (remember the equation from Fight Club?). 7. Since Tim is not an official representative of CCH, if they choose not to expand the recall they can always claim that Tim was not acting in an official capacity on their behalf when he posted the statement to this thread. Perhaps in a week there will be a message from cchaliens asking that people stop sending in non-dimpled Aliens as they are not affected by the recall. 8. "We can't update our website" and "RC.com won't let us post, Tim, could you do it for us?" -- two necessary ingredients for this hypothetical scheme to work. Didn't they just update their website a few months ago? It just sounds suspicious, like a lawyer is telling them not to say anything official about this. OK, that's all hypothesis. I should do my due dilligence by contacting CCH to find out: 1. Did they see the statement Tim published on their behalf? 2. Did they authorize Tim to publish that statement? 3. Are they expanding the recall to non-dimpled units or different production dates? 4. Are they unable to comment officially due to ongoing litigation? Maybe I will call on Tuesday. Then I can form conclusions. phew, thanks for the dose of objectivity. let us know what they say? pleeeeeeeeeeeease?
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murf
Sep 4, 2006, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: Let me make some very cynical hypotheses: 1. CCH has legal and financial representation (perhaps a lawyer and an accountant). 2. Recalls are expensive. 3. Recalls damage reputation as some people will not trust a product or company with too many recalls. 4. CCH would like to avoid a recall if it's not necessary. 5. CCH has found a means to unofficially encourage people to send in Aliens not covered by the recall description. 6. CCH can test these units and then decide whether or not to expand the scope of the recall (remember the equation from Fight Club?). 7. Since Tim is not an official representative of CCH, if they choose not to expand the recall they can always claim that Tim was not acting in an official capacity on their behalf when he posted the statement to this thread. Perhaps in a week there will be a message from cchaliens asking that people stop sending in non-dimpled Aliens as they are not affected by the recall. 8. "We can't update our website" and "RC.com won't let us post, Tim, could you do it for us?" -- two necessary ingredients for this hypothetical scheme to work. Didn't they just update their website a few months ago? It just sounds suspicious, like a lawyer is telling them not to say anything official about this. OK, that's all hypothesis. I should do my due dilligence by contacting CCH to find out: 1. Did they see the statement Tim published on their behalf? 2. Did they authorize Tim to publish that statement? 3. Are they expanding the recall to non-dimpled units or different production dates? 4. Are they unable to comment officially due to ongoing litigation? Maybe I will call on Tuesday. Then I can form conclusions. You know, the above would show a shrewd, if completely immoral company. I think in this instance, simple lack of business sense and manufacturing knowledge is more likely. Although it is amusing to imagine tgreene as a Manchurian Candidate ( although it sounds like his head is "about to come to a point" ), I honestly don't think either CCH or tgreene is trying to be sinister. Murf
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leavingne
Sep 6, 2006, 3:37 PM
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I spoke with someone at CCH this morning. Conversation started roughly: "CCH" "Hi, I've got a few Aliens and I wanted to check if they're affected by the recall." (silence) "So the recall notice said the date range was Nov 2004 to Dec 2005 but there's a guy on rockclimbing.com that says it's not just the dimpled ones, or not just that date range or something." He said they definitely need to get any dimpled ones back since there is a potential problem with them. But he said they will test any Aliens that someone sends in to be tested. I asked if they're recommending that people send in Aliens that don't fall within the recall criteria or if it's just for someone's peace of mind to have them tested. He said if you've got units that have taken a few falls and want to send them in they can chop the main cable and put a new one on for like $10. And he reiterated that they need to get all the dimpled ones back. I told him that three of mine are newer, stamped 706 (July 2006) and they're not all marked the same. Two of them have "Tensile tested" stamped on the copper piece and one doesn't, but they all have the "L" marking on the head. He said they've been testing all of their cams since January, so those three I have have all been tested. I didn't press the issue ("then why wasn't it stamped"), and also forgot to mention that two of the cams have "N1" or "N5" hand-scratched into the axle end while one does not (it's not the same one as doesn't have the "TT" mark) -- not sure what those marks mean. I told him I have one that's stamped 1101, obviously before the recall period. He said I could send it in to get tested if I wanted. I told him that I plan on using it this weekend, so I don't want to send it in unless they actually have a concern about its reliability. I don't remember his exact response but it didn't give me cause to be nervous about using it this weekend. Now that's all from memory, but I don't think I've misrepresented anything we spoke about. I agree with Murf, I don't think there's anything sinister going on here. And I re-read the initial notice that tgreene posted. Maybe I read too much into it to begin with or maybe it was something posted later, but I don't get the impression anymore that they are expanding the scope of the recall. The concern is that perhaps that Orange Alien that failed was supposed to be dimpled but either wasn't or wasn't struck hard enough for the dimple to show clearly. Of course, it's also possible that it's dimpled clearly on the other side of the head from the side you see in the crime-lab photos. Given the possibilities and until more detail is available about that Orange Alien, if I owned any Aliens from 1104 to 1205 (easier to positively identify than a dimple), then personally, I would send them in to be tested dimple or not, just for peace of mind. By the way, I got the impression that maybe this guy I talked to today had to take off his welding mask before answering the phone. Does anyone know how big the company is? 5 people maybe? I'm guessing they don't have any PR people, or a receptionist, or a secretary, or a lawyer, or an accountant, or a web monkey. Pure mom & pop manufacturing. But that's just the impression I got. I'm not sure how this helps but somebody wanted to know what they said. Sorry if it's the most pointless post in the world.
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daithi
Sep 6, 2006, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: I didn't press the issue ("then why wasn't it stamped") Why not? I would have. You are perfectly entitled to. Put bluntly CCH don't seem competent enough to warrant the implicit trust of their customers.
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josephgdawson
Sep 6, 2006, 5:43 PM
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I just called CCH. They have not expanded the recall and they will pull test and stamp any Aliens you send to them free of charge no matter when they were manufactured. In short, the info by the OP is correct. The guy at CCH to whom I spoke on the phone sounded fine to me. On a side note:
In reply to: Why not? I would have. You are perfectly entitled to. Put bluntly CCH don't seem competent enough to warrant the implicit trust of their customers. Your post is worthless and a waste of ones, zeros and bandwidth. I got sick of reading all of the posts by idiots on RC.com and called CCH myself.
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daithi
Sep 6, 2006, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why not? I would have. You are perfectly entitled to. Put bluntly CCH don't seem competent enough to warrant the implicit trust of their customers. Your post is worthless and a waste of ones, zeros and bandwidth. Quite likely! However, since it is obvious that leavingne has some misgivings about the structural integrity of the cams and in particular the one that didn't have a stamp that verified it had been tensile tested, I would recommend they ring again for their own peace of mind. Obviously CCH don't quite have the new process down if they aren't stamping all the cams tested with the tensile tested stamp (I can't think of a reason why they deliberately would only mark some).
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kai_da_klimba
Sep 6, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: leavingne has some misgivings about the structural integrity of the cams and in particular the one that didn't have a stamp that verified it had been tensile tested, I would recommend they ring again for their own peace of mind. Obviously CCH don't quite have the new process down if they aren't stamping all the cams tested with the tensile tested stamp (I can't think of a reason why they deliberately would only mark some). As tgreene explained somewhere else, they initially stamped the tensile tested units with letters, since they didn't have the "TT" die... From what I read about their marks and tgreene's explanations, leavingne's cam's have been tensile tested, but marked using the pre-"TT" die method
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