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dptaylor
Sep 16, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Okay, here's a story for ya'll:
My partner was about ready to red-point his project (5.12b), but at the second to last bolt he took a fall. I saw him fall and locked the rope, but because of the force of the fall (the blot he was clipping into was at shoulder height, and he had enough slack in the rope to clip, so the initial free-fall was nearly 20 feet), and the fact that we were using a new rope caused the rope to slip in my hand. The initial slipping caused some pretty good burns on my hands and I couldn't’t regain a hold on the rope. My climber decked out. By the grace of God, he didn’t suffer any major injuries (he fell from 35-45 feet off the deck).
Obviously the first thing we’re going to do when we have both recovered is invest in a good locking belay… any suggestions there? I’m also wondering if there’s something I can do when my climber is going for the next clip? Is there a better way to brace for a lead climb fall than simply locking the rope as you normally would? And, one last question: this fall has not hurt my friendship at all, but is there anything I can do to help both myself and my partner to feel comfortable climbing together?
If anyone has any fall stories they think I might be able to learn from please PM me and let me know.
~Dave
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zeke_sf
Sep 16, 2006, 12:17 PM
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wow! glad your buddy came out allright! you must have slowed down the fall in some way, right? rope stretch?
I'm pretty useless here as I've only held maybe 15 foot falls or so. any longer than that and I just let go :shock:
seriously though, maybe belay gloves would have a place in this situation. I love the versatility of atc type devices, but I'm sure many out there would steer you towards purchasing a petzl gri-gri or cinch or something.
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dptaylor
Sep 16, 2006, 12:33 PM
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Well, if my hands are any indication, then yeah, I slowed him down a bit. And I'm pretty sure gloved would have helped too.
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unreleasedenergy
Sep 16, 2006, 3:29 PM
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Belay gloves or an autolocking device (grigri, cinch, faders sum etc) both could have helped you avoid your accident. If you remember, did you lock off the rope and brace against the fall or did you give a dynamic catch? I'm wondering if a dynamic belay might have lessened the force enough to allow you to keep a bare hand on the rope?
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1stbelay
Sep 17, 2006, 6:46 AM
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In reply to: And, one last question: this fall has not hurt my friendship at all, but is there anything I can do to help both myself and my partner to feel comfortable climbing together? |
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mingleefu
Sep 17, 2006, 7:39 AM
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In reply to: the fact that we were using a new rope caused the rope to slip in my hand...
Before addressing your questions, I'll say that using a new rope is no excuse for it to slip out of your hands. You've probably already acknowledged it at some point in your assessment, but it bears mentioning. As long as you are the belayer, it is your job to never lose the rope. There, I said it.
When the climber is going for the next clip: I never stand straight legged if I can help it. I'm semi-crouched, poised and ready to react to what the climber needs. If he needs more rope, I'm feeding it in huge lengths to stay ahead of him. If there is already rope out (pre-clip), I have my break hand way up close to the belay device so that I can pull out the excess slack as soon as it's clipped. Having my hand close also allows me to reel in the yards of extra slack if he drops the rope due to fatigue, falling, etc. Being poised with slightly bent knees (attentively- I'm not in a sprinter's stance or anything) allows me to take a couple quick steps away from the rock in the event of a fall. It's called a "running belay". I'll also throw my hips to the ground when the climber comes off the rock. All three motions together (arm's length of slack, quick steps away, hips to the ground) will pull in an extra 8-10 feet of slack when I do it. Granted, you have to be careful because this is not the softest way to catch a climber but it is sure softer than Decking.
The best thing you can do is admit you part in the climber's groundfall. It might not be entirely your fault since falling with rope out at the second bolt is almost certainly earth-bound, but you were holding the other end of it when it happened. Having confronted the problem, analyze it and practice vigilent belaying to ameliorate the situation. For instance, when your climber calls, "take," you should be working hard to obey the command immediately. Intentionally quick responses to the climber's demands will encourage the habit of being a good belayer. The trust will follow.
You may also want to suggest that your climber yell "falling!" or something along those lines when he is off the rock. The sooner he yells it, the sooner you can react. That way, you don't have to wait for the rope to pull tension before you respond, but you know that the response must be immediate.
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mingleefu
Sep 17, 2006, 7:42 AM
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double post.
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dptaylor
Sep 17, 2006, 11:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: the fact that we were using a new rope caused the rope to slip in my hand... Before addressing your questions, I'll say that using a new rope is no excuse for it to slip out of your hands. You've probably already acknowledged that at some point in your assessment, but it bears mentioning.
I agree. I actually debated putting that bit in. I lost the rope, it's my fault. My only reasoning for even mentioning it was that it didn't seem to help the situation, but thats not the point here. The point is, as you said, I should NEVER loose the rope. Now on to brighter parts of this whole deal...
Thanks for the advise on the Running belay, I had never been taught that before and I'm sure it would have helped, or even prevented this whole mess. As far as communication goes, my partner and I have discussed it and will be changing the way we interact together when we climb. Thanks again!
David
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patto
Sep 17, 2006, 11:29 AM
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I think you need to question the way you are gripping the rope. If you are locked off then there is no reason why the rope should slip through your hands.
I know that if I am locked off then my arm is almost straight and the rope is passing through my hands and bending as it goes through. This GREATLY increases the grip you can have on the rope. My hand would get dragged up towards my belay device long before I lose grip on the rope.
But I don't really have much experience in catching whippers, I sure otheres would know better. However I think you should consider how you are gripping the rope.
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jaybro
Sep 17, 2006, 12:19 PM
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You weren't locked off.
If you were, the rope Could Not, pull through and burn your hand, no matter how much slack was in the line. When you catch a fall, the device takes the impact, not your hand. All your hand does is hold the rope in the right position. You don't even feel it in your belay hand, now the tug at your waist, is another story.
end of story.
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daithi
Sep 17, 2006, 1:10 PM
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What belay device were you using? What was the diameter of the rope?
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wyt91t
Sep 17, 2006, 1:49 PM
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what were you using. i only use a gri gri and the new black diamond atc which has teeth on one side
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j_ung
Sep 17, 2006, 1:56 PM
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First off, glad you're both (mostly) OK. Second, thanks for admitting your role in the accident. That's certainly the first step to making sure it never happens again.
There are some good suggestions above, but don't think for a second that it's a good idea to use all of them. Start with the most obvious and narrow things down from there... Did you're belay technique contribute? (a la jaybro, above) If this was the problem, then switching to an autolocking belay device might actually make things worse. They're certainly more complicated to use correctly, and none of them are intended to substitute for belay skills.
Lastly, the "running belay" (which I'm using here to describe any technique for taking slack out if the system mid-fall) is a great bundle of tricks to have in your bag, but would probably have been a bad idea in your case. Such technques are intended to limit fall distance on runout slabs and in cases where the ground (of some other obstacle, say a ledge) is so close, you can't otherwise keep your climber off of it. In any other case, let the fall do its thing and focus on keeping the brake under control.
I guess I don't really have any answers, only questions: What belay technique do you use? Do you use it correctly? What device do you use? Do you use it correctly? Sorry, I know these are basic -- and maybe even insulting -- questions, but they're the most obvious places to start.
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kman
Sep 17, 2006, 2:25 PM
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Seems to be a bit of confusion kicking around. He said he was at the second to LAST bolt on the route, not the second one up. Either way, there is no excuse to have dropped your friend. A 20 foot fall is not hard to catch. If you don't know how to catch a fall then a friggin auto locking device is not the answer. Learn to belay properly first.
I'm also curious to know what the rope diameter was and what belay device you were using.
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justthemaid
Sep 17, 2006, 2:58 PM
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Wow- glad your friend is OK, and still speaking to you.
Not flaming here at all, but you need to take a cold hard look at your belay technique. Get someone you respect to critique you.
My BF is 80 lbs more than me and I've never experienced slippage like what you describe while catching a fall.
I use an ATC-XP and belay gloves, and I agree that an auto locking device isn't always the answer.
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ja1484
Sep 17, 2006, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: You weren't locked off. If you were, the rope Could Not, pull through and burn your hand, no matter how much slack was in the line. When you catch a fall, the device takes the impact, not your hand. All your hand does is hold the rope in the right position. You don't even feel it in your belay hand, now the tug at your waist, is another story. end of story.
Good, someone said it.
A locked off belay device, whether it's self-locking or standard tube style, won't let rope slip. The harder the fall force on the other end of the line, the more the device locks, and the pull is transmitted through it to your belay loop to your harness, yanking you forward or off the ground.
You should be prepared to be pulled around a bit when on belay, as a big fall certainly will. Check your surroundings, and watch for things you may hit. If necessary, anchor yourself in place.
Bottom line, though I don't know the circumstances, you either weren't locked off, or you had an incorrect belay setup or defective belay device.
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maldaly
Sep 17, 2006, 4:28 PM
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I'm super glad your buddy is okay. It's rare to deck from that high w/o injuries. Lots of good comments in this thread and a few that are off the mark. Here are my thoughts:
First, we really need to know what device you were using and what the rope diameter is. Because there are no standards for belay devices there is a huge variance in how well a belay device will lock off on different diameter ropes. And, no, a belay device can let rope slip even when it's locked off solidly. It just depends on how the device is paired with the rope. If you're using a new 9.2mm rope that has a slick sheath with an old-school ATC or Pyramid, it's not going to lock off well. Belaying with a well-used 10.5 or 11mm rope in the same device, on the other hand, will give you a pretty stonker lock.
No matter how much we want our locking assist devices (Cinch, Grigri, SUM, Eddy) to be fail-safe, they aren't. The statistics are clear: by at least a 10:1 margin, belay accidents happen more often with locking assist devices than with traditional devices. Locking assist devices are a great tool for sport climbers working routes, guides and big wall climbers but are not substitute for skill, practice and focused attention of the belayer.
So what's the answer? Use a belay device that's calibrated to the rope diameter you're using. For 10.3 - 11mm ropes, a good all-around device like the ATC, Pyramid, Reverso works well. In the 9.8 - 10.5 range, the Variable Controller, B-52, Reverso, ATC-XP are my favorites. When ropes get skinner than that I go to Jaws, SGB II, XP Guide, all of which seem to work well up through the 10.5 range but may feed slower. I use my Cinch when my climber is working a sport route (not trying to redpoint it), for belaying a top rope, and walls. Cinch, Grigri, etc are also good those Stone Mountain running belays that j_ung is talking about. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE GIVE A CINCH, GRIGRI (ETC) TO A BEGINNER.
Climb safe,
Mal
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daithi
Sep 17, 2006, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: A locked off belay device, whether it's self-locking or standard tube style, won't let rope slip. The harder the fall force on the other end of the line, the more the device locks, and the pull is transmitted through it to your belay loop to your harness, yanking you forward or off the ground.
Not at all! Friction devices like an ATC etc. have a limit to the braking force they can apply (2 kN according to R&I, which isn't that great). It is dangerous to assume it won't let rope slip.
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mingleefu
Sep 17, 2006, 5:47 PM
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Like J_ung says, it's a gem for the bag o' tricks but isn't something that should be required often if one belays correctly.
In reply to: Seems to be a bit of confusion kicking around. He said he was at the second to LAST bolt on the route, not the second one up.
I mentioned the running belay here because I read it wrong that the climber was at the second bolt and fell while he had a ton of slack pulled out in order to clip (which is a groundfall potential situation). Apologies for my confusion.
But because I brought it up... One caveat of the "running belay" (which I use in the more literal sense of quickly running away from the wall)... The further you get from the wall, the less your bodyweight is going to act as a counter balance for the climber's fall. If you find yourself 15 feet away from the wall because you weren't standing under the climber to begin with, then you are going to have to dig your heels in, hard. In all likelihood, if you end up too far away, you'll only slow the climber's fall as your body gets whipped back towards the bottom of the climb, dragging in the dirt. It's something to be aware of and a good reason not to find yourself in this position, as you clearly were not.
I like to think that if I somehow lost control of the rope during a fall, I'd be throwing my body on the pile of flaked rope, while wrapping my arms up in the brake end of the rope. It might create a nutty situation to deal with, but I'd rather be hogtied than let my climber crater.
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djoseph
Sep 18, 2006, 2:49 AM
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Glad that the climber is OK... and thanks to the OP for sharing the situation.
Just a couple of questions/comments. I've only caught < 10 foot lead falls, so I'm curious about the following:
- When a leader is falling, and I can "lock off," I usually grab an arm's length of rope and pull it behind my hip. So the ATC locks, but then I also have friction across the hip. Is it really possible for smaller diameter ropes to slip in this configuration? (I'm surprised if so, because on falls with 10mm ropes I've been pulled up off the ground, but no discernable slippage).
- Question to the OP: Did you lock off in that way, and it still slipped?
- Seems like a running belay with a long (free) fall would be a big mistake... sort of the opposite of a dynamic belay, creating more shock on the belay device. Plus, wouldn't the increasing angle of the rope at the top draw (caused by the belayer running away from the clifF) significantly reduce the friction?
(Note: I understand that mingleefu only suggested the running belay because he thought the OP was describing a fall from the second bolt... however, I'm interested in more clarification about when a running belay is indicated.)
Thanks,
Dan
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ja1484
Sep 20, 2006, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: Not at all! Friction devices like an ATC etc. have a limit to the braking force they can apply (2 kN according to R&I, which isn't that great). It is dangerous to assume it won't let rope slip.
Friction devices like an ATC have a *breaking strength* of about 2KN, but since your body moves well before you reach that point anyway, it's moot. He wasn't locked off, or there was a problem with his system. That is all.
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angry
Sep 20, 2006, 2:34 AM
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I had a brand new 9.6 dry rope earlier this year (still have it, just not new anymore). The first use I was having a hell of a time giving a top belay with an ATC. I could easily see the rope getting away from me in a hard lead fall with that same rope and device. I switched to the ATC XP and haven't had a worry in the world since.
And just some story this guy told me while hanging out on a flatiron one day. He said he took a Trango B-52 somewhere to break it, out of curiosity. He said the steel links that held the pull contraption together broke before the B-52. True? Hell if I know, but that's more than 2kn.
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shockabuku
Sep 20, 2006, 3:04 AM
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I think this
In reply to: ... He said he took a Trango B-52 somewhere to break it, out of curiosity. He said the steel links that held the pull contraption together broke before the B-52. True? Hell if I know, but that's more than 2kn.
is in response to this
In reply to: Friction devices like an ATC have a *breaking strength* of about 2KN
And I think that ja1484 meant the friction force that the ATC applies to the rope as opposed to the force required to bust apart the ATC.
Or were you foolin' with us?
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