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bigga
Sep 10, 2002, 8:03 PM
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Does your quickdraw spine have to be facing the direction you are climbing in? I'm not talking about back-clipping here. I mean if you are going to travice right after a bolt, should the spine of the biner be on the right? I used to do this cos it seemed more logical as far as reducing chances of the rope falling on the gate, and then I was told it doesn't make difference which way the gate is facing... and now I read a post where someone mentioned this...
Should I go back to my old ways?
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fitz
Sep 10, 2002, 8:11 PM
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The basic rule of thumb is, the gate should be facing away from the direction of travel (ie, if you are going right, place the gates facing left). If the route is straight up, alternate.
That said, the general rule may not be best in some specific situations. I think that JT512 has posted some stuff on this in the past.
-jjf
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swisslady
Sep 11, 2002, 3:58 PM
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I second that, especially if you have carabiners with a curved gate (when the gate faces you and you fall diagonally, you risk that the rope unclips itself).
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climbincajun
Sep 11, 2002, 4:04 PM
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yes...gate away from the direction of travel. that way the rope falls across the spine.
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waxman
Sep 11, 2002, 9:04 PM
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whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
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jt512
Sep 12, 2002, 1:40 AM
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Quote:whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
Another beginner with an "opinion." You've been climbing a whole 4 months according to your profile. Your job is to ask questions, not answer them. The purpose of the Beginners Forum is to have a place for beginners to get answers from experienced climbers, not for beginners to spread dangerous misinformation among themselves.
-Jay
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crux_clipper
Sep 12, 2002, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Another beginner with an "opinion." You've been climbing a whole 4 months according to your profile. Your job is to ask questions, not answer them. The purpose of the Beginners Forum is to have a place for beginners to get answers from experienced climbers, not for beginners to spread dangerous misinformation among themselves.
jt512, give waxman a break. Sure his new to climbing, but how do you know that he hasn't been reading up on every bit of climbing litterature for those 4 months, and climbing every weekend?
Just because you have climbed longer then him, and know more then he does, doesn't make him incompetant to give his opinion. Everyone has their right to an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. It may not be correct according to you, but what gives you the right to tell him what he should and shouldn't post.
This was in a discussion not so long ago, about a hierachy within the climbing community. you have now proved that, labelling waxman as a beginner who can't express his opinion, just because his only been climbing for 4 months. While, because you have been climbing since 1985, you are able to tell the beginners what to do, because you are experienced.
Shame on you.....
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jt512
Sep 12, 2002, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
jt512, give waxman a break. Sure his new to climbing, but how do you know that he hasn't been reading up on every bit of climbing litterature for those 4 months...
Because if he'd read anything, he'd know that his answer was wrong and could get someone killed.
Quote:
...and climbing every weekend?
Wow! That would be impressive! A whole 4 months' of weekend climbing.
Quote:Just because you have climbed longer then him, and know more then he does, doesn't make him incompetant to give his opinion.
That's correct. My climbing experience has nothing to do with the fact that he is not competent to field safety questions from other beginners in this forum.
Quote:
Everyone has their right to an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. It may not be correct according to you, but what gives you the right to tell him what he should and shouldn't post.
People are entitled to express their opinions about whether they think blue carabiners are prettier than pink carabiners, but not about safety issues when they have 4 months experience. At that point they don't know enough yet, and these forums become chaotic and full of misinformation, which can get someone killed.
Quote:This was in a discussion not so long ago, about a hierachy within the climbing community. you have now proved that, labelling waxman as a beginner who can't express his opinion, just because his only been climbing for 4 months. While, because you have been climbing since 1985, you are able to tell the beginners what to do, because you are experienced.
You and the other beginners should be glad that there is such a hierarchy.
Quote:
Shame on you.....
Bullshit.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-12 17:47 ]
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climbingaddict
Sep 13, 2002, 11:18 AM
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mam, listen to all these pros talking.. I would say about the same things.. So, why bother..
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dune
Sep 13, 2002, 9:52 PM
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The best way to prevent the rope from accidentally opening a non-oval (or any type actually) biner durring a fall is to turn the biner around after you clip it, especially if you climbing in the direction of the gate. I have a buddy who worries about this so much that he often uses a locker for his first clip on a pitch, but I think that's overkill.
I wonder if there are any statistics on the frequency of this event. Anyone?
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ximiana
Sep 13, 2002, 10:01 PM
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This depent where u climb, and where u can fall, u can protect for the other side that u can fall
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whipper
Sep 13, 2002, 10:15 PM
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A little fo subject here but Jt has got it right and crux you should learn to respect the hierarchy. There is one. That does not mean I am better than you or that jt is. But I damn well garrantee that I have seen more and been exposed to more. So yes our opinions do get more respect.
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rendog
Sep 13, 2002, 10:40 PM
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Gonna have to agree with jt512 on this one.
No offence to the "newbies" but swallow some of that pride and just ask questions. too many ppl hurt because they " thought"they knew an answer.
4 months of weekend climbing does not justify an answer like "doesn't matter".
Yes it does matter. In fact a matter of staying on route and not decking out.
And yes as the rule of thumb goes: "gates away from your travel".
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rocknpowda
Sep 13, 2002, 10:47 PM
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This is simple, but hard to explain with words. Go to the crag or the gym and check out the hangers there and you'll see what I mean.
The proper way to clip a quickdraw to a bolt is so it hangs with the gate of the biner on the same side as the bolt is on the hanger. Basically the gate should hang below the bolt. On all hangers that I know of, this is on the right side so you should clip from the left with a rightward motion. This puts the force of the pull on the spine all the time. Though extremely rare, clipping the other way exposes you to risk of torqueing and breaking the biner that is clipped to the hanger.
The biner on the quickdraw that holds the rope can face either way but you always have to clip the rope so that the it runs from the belayer up the rock and away out through the biner to your harness. Opposite from this is backclipping which I am sure is discussed in many places on this site. Though rare, backclipping can lead to the rope popping the gate open and falling out of the quickdraw.
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thrillseeker05
Sep 13, 2002, 10:48 PM
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Just because you have climbed longer and seen more doesn’t mean you should gain respect nor does it mean that you know anything about what you are talking about. I have seen many people out-climb more experienced climbers and I have seen many experienced climbers make the stupidest mistakes. There is NO hierarchy in climbing.
Respect is given to those that EARN it. your knowledge and your abilities are the only thing that earn it. I don’t care if you have been top roping for the last 20 years.
Bad advice can come from any level and it often does. If it is bad advice then that’s all it is.
you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock. Instead, if bad advice is given… just help them see the light..
check your 10year macho bullshit at the door.
[ This Message was edited by: thrillseeker05 on 2002-09-13 15:52 ]
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jt512
Sep 14, 2002, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
The proper way to clip a quickdraw to a bolt is so it hangs with the gate of the biner on the same side as the bolt is on the hanger. Basically the gate should hang below the bolt. On all hangers that I know of, this is on the right side so you should clip from the left with a rightward motion. This puts the force of the pull on the spine all the time. Though extremely rare, clipping the other way exposes you to risk of torqueing and breaking the biner that is clipped to the hanger.
Now that's a new one. Can you provide any evidence a biner has ever broken because it has been torqued by this mechanism?
I've never heard of what the (supposed) issue you mention, but there are two other issues wrt which direction the bolt-end draw should face:
1. If the gate is facing the bolt head, there is a minute chance that it can catch on the bolt head and open in a fall. This argues against doing what you suggest (I think).
2. If the bolt-end biner's gate is facing the direction the route traverses above the bolt, there is a chance that the gate can be pulled into the hanger when the rope tends to rotate the draw up as the climber climbs past it and to one side. In a fall, the hanger could unclip or break.
I suspect that issue #2 is the most important, so I keep my draws set up with the gates of the 2 biners facing the same dirction, and I place the draw so that the spines of both gates are away from the line of travel.
Quote:
The biner on the quickdraw that holds the rope can face either way...
Why do you believe this when every climbing instruction book, every experienced sport climber I've met, and common sense says otherwise?
-Jay
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whipper
Sep 14, 2002, 3:56 AM
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JT is right again. And thrill seeker my knowledge and abilities have earned it. you dont know me and i did not disrespect you. So dont go there with me.
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coldclimb
Sep 14, 2002, 5:43 AM
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Quote:Just because you have climbed longer and seen more doesn’t mean you should gain respect nor does it mean that you know anything about what you are talking about.
It may not mean anything knowledge-wise, but anyone who has climbed for 15 years gets my respect.
Quote:There is NO hierarchy in climbing.
Respect is given to those that EARN it. your knowledge and your abilities are the only thing that earn it.
oh, I see now, some people begin climbing with more knowledge and experience than others gain in 15 years. I don't think so.
Quote:If it is bad advice then that’s all it is.
This bad advice can KILL.
Quote:you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock.
He wasn't, he was degrading him for giving bad advice.
Don't feel bad for being yelled at for giving bad advice. I would consider myself lucky that someone corrected me in so blatant a manner before I was the cause of someone's death. He was wrong, he was informed, it's over now.
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rendog
Sep 15, 2002, 3:36 AM
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well put man.
JT512 doesn't have my, no offense meant here in anyway bro, personal respect, simply because I don't know him.
HOWEVER!!! The words that he speaks are the truth. This is one of the things that I was taught from the very start. and not just from joe schmuck at the crag, but from the WAY too may guides here around Canmore.
I will say that after 10+ years climbing, He's probably more apt to say the right thing and give sound advice.
keep your sticks on the ice.
"D"
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farmerc
Sep 15, 2002, 4:18 AM
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I don't think the rule of clipping so taht the spine is in the direction of travel applies solely to sport. Thats why I keep that in mind even on trad climbs. I check my biner position and consider the route before I make each clip. Its something that other trad leaders can learn to keep in mind, as trad is shifting away from that "don't fall" mentality.
~Chris
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joemor
Sep 15, 2002, 4:31 AM
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what happens when you use long runners to make draws that twist from one side to the other, essentially going from correctly clipped to back clipped?
joe
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crux_clipper
Sep 15, 2002, 10:21 AM
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Just to clear everything up for me JT, clipping a draw properly sees the rope coming from behind the biner and out the front. So how is it physically possible to fall from above or beside the draw (and generallly when you fall, you fall away from he face, simple gravity tells us this), then end up behind it, enabling it to unclip miraculously?
Quote:
Now that's a new one. Can you provide any evidence a biner has ever broken because it has been torqued by this mechanism?
1. I have heard stories of 'Lucky' brand biners on draws breaking in a fall.
2. Can you provide any evidence that a rope will unclip itself if the gate is facing the direction of the climber?
Quote:
whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
Waxman is completely right when he said this. Had you have backlipped and fell, the chances of the draw unclipping itself has increased immensly. I agree with this opinion more then which way the draw should be.
Plus, joe's right, a runner twists and turns all the time, i actually saw this happen in a traversing route i lead the other day. It's just as dangerous, is it not? I didn't even think twice about which way the draw was facing, as i new there was no danger.
Quote:
You and the other beginners should be glad that there is such a hierarchy.
Although it doesn't say it in my profile, i have actually been climbing for two years, and before i even considered leading outdoors, i took a weekend instructional course with accredited guides. For almost a year now i have been able to trad lead outdoors, and i am experienced enough to go away on extended trips for climbing. So basically JT, you assumed that i was a beginner due to my age, is that right? So at what age is a person not a beginner, and how many years of experience does one need to not be considered a beginner?
Quote:
you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock. Instead, if bad advice is given… just help them see the light..
check your 10year macho bullshit at the door.
my hat goes off to you good sir
[ This Message was edited by: crux_clipper on 2002-09-15 03:31 ]
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ajkclay
Sep 15, 2002, 2:04 PM
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I have worked in jobs with people who have been there for 20+ years, and they were complete idiots! Time doing something doesn't necessarily make you an expert, and entitle you to respect.
The way you speak to others however, does greatly reduce the respect that others will have for you.
JT in future when reading your comments, my,(and probably others) perception of them will be coloured by the image you have created for yourself. It doesn't take much effort to put forward an opinion or correct someone nicely.
You and certain others are attacking people with a ferocity that will give this site the reputation of being nothing but a place where a self important few are allowed to bully whomever they like. CUT
IT OUT!
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basecamp_junkie
Sep 15, 2002, 3:10 PM
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I agree. Whether a lifetime of experience, or four months, a little bit of tact would be in order. Moral of the story, do your homework, research the answer to your question, ask the opinions of those who are experienced and who you trust, then make your own informed decision.
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dirtbag
Sep 16, 2002, 6:07 AM
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Switch to bouldering - less worries.
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