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dbarandiaran
Nov 30, 2006, 7:40 PM
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there was a thread in the injuries section about a girth hitched mammut sling failing. in this thread it was generally agreed that girth hitching these slings is bad. i posted a question about the wisdom of CLOVE hitching one of these slings to one biner in a quickdraw setup. i have found this to be very useful for a variety of reasons. after reading aforementioned thread, i became concerned about the safety of such a setup. i originally read about this setup in climbing magazine, but that does not necessarily mean this is a tested way of doing things. can someone give me some feedback on this? my question seems to have died on the other thread.
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healyje
Nov 30, 2006, 8:09 PM
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I would have to say that girth hitching something the diameter of most biners would be a bad idea in general with 8mm Dyneema.
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dbarandiaran
Nov 30, 2006, 8:18 PM
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once again... the question is about CLOVE hitches not girth hitches
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sweetchuck
Nov 30, 2006, 8:22 PM
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I'd have to say that clove hitching it is fine. The problem with the girth hitch (not to a biner but to another sling) is the tight radius the sling is forced into (think the difference between running a sling over a beer can vs. a bicycle spoke). The clove hitch will not turn the sling in a tighter radius than just putting a biner on the sling. In this case I don't see the physics to be any different than for the thicker slings. If the clove hitch is loose and comes tight there may be some sling on sling rubbing but just an inch, nothing to worry about, and with the slick nature of dyneema it would be better for this than nylon. I think it should be fine.
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healyje
Nov 30, 2006, 8:24 PM
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Sorry, I'd say cloving is fine so long as you are monitoring the wear on every draw. I just replaced all my 8mm Mammut alpine draw slings after two/three years. I did a different version of an alpine draw that allowed three lengths instead of two but that resulted in a crossover on one biner that is not unlike a clove for all practical purposes. I've since discontinued the practice and switched back to the standard two-length alpine draw configuration due to what I considered too much wear on the slings.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 30, 2006, 8:26 PM)
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zeke_sf
Nov 30, 2006, 8:41 PM
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so what about slinging features (chickenheads, etc.)? is dyneema unsuitable for this use with, say, a slipknot? I know you can clove hitch these features as well, so that may be a more suitable knot with less slippage....
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Nov 30, 2006, 8:42 PM)
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blakester
Nov 30, 2006, 9:35 PM
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no, when you re using them to girth hitch or sling something with a diameter that is large enough to prevent the "cutting" action, it shouldn't be a problem.
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alpinismo_flujo
Nov 30, 2006, 9:47 PM
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I agree. From I have heard it's the Dyneema that under weight and sharp bends cuts easily. It is a problem in the sailing industry as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 30, 2006, 11:39 PM
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The super skinny 8mm & 6mm dynema are just not practicle INMOP Too many things you shouldn't use them for, too expensive and wear out too quickly. old fassioned nylon is stronger in climbing aplication, not much heavier and lasts longer. I trust my old 7/16ths spectra slings as they have held up well but the newer skinny stuff is a waste of money INMOP
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shimanilami
Nov 30, 2006, 11:53 PM
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I disagree. The 6mm slings form trad quickdraws that are almost as slim as my Petzl sport draws. I can carry 12 on just 2 gear loops on my harness. They are uniquely useful for this application: sweet for clipping nuts, the random bolt, etc.
But for other purposes - and especially with double-length runners like those used to establish anchors, hang ledges, etc. - I'm sticking with my 7/16" and fatter runners. When you cinch a knot in the skinny stuff, it's a bitch to untie. And I only carry a couple of those at a time so the girth isn't such an issue.
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thedejongs
Dec 2, 2006, 4:11 AM
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You folks may have seen this, but here's some credible evaluation of the dyneema sling issue:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...p_archive.php#110906
I understand that Mammut is testing slings like crazy, working on an analysis of the issue, and intending to publish its analysis sometime this month-- check the Mammut website from time to time. I further understand that the analysis won't be dissimilar from that found at the link (hopefully) attached, above.
Give 'em a chance before you start ditching the product.
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tradrenn
Dec 3, 2006, 1:19 AM
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IMHO One should extend a sling using locking biner and not a girth hitch or any other knot.
After all we all cary a cordallete with couple of locking biners on it, just use one of those biners.
And ones the pitch is done and one is short of locking biners one can use 2 nonlocker that one carries his/hers cams on ( gates opposed )
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dbarandiaran
Dec 3, 2006, 2:28 AM
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let's try to stay on topic here... i am interested in comments about clove hitching a dyneema sling to a biner, not linking slings together or anything having to do with a girth hitch
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cracklover
Dec 3, 2006, 5:37 AM
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I hadn't seen it yet. Not quite on topic for the OP's post, but I appreciate it - very interesting. Thanks for bringing this in.
To the OP - yeah, that's fine.
GO
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tradrenn
Dec 4, 2006, 2:18 AM
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dbarandiaran wrote: let's try to stay on topic here... i am interested in comments about clove hitching a dyneema sling to a biner, not linking slings together or anything having to do with a girth hitch
Please see below:
dbarandiaran wrote: i posted a question about the wisdom of CLOVE hitching one of these slings to one biner in a quickdraw setup.
This is what you wrote in your first post that started this thread and because of that I wrote what I did in my previous post.
The problem with THE CLOVE HITCH is that it will not slip on dynamic rope but it WILL on static rope
Slings are static, as far as I'm concern. That's the reason why I would extend my draw using locking biner.
Let me ask you this:
Are you extanding your draw while leading your route?
or
Are you extanding your draw for anchoring purposes ?
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dbarandiaran
Dec 4, 2006, 5:12 PM
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my set-up is this: i have 10 shoulder length slings that i use as quickdraws while on lead. they are tripled up. when the sling is clove hitched to one of the biners, then extending it is very easy to do one-handed. for anchoring i have a large piece of webbing that i use cordalette style.
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tradrenn
Dec 5, 2006, 1:18 AM
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I have to admit the subject of this thread is interesting, unfortunately there is no need to have a CLOVE on your sling to extend your draw. The only time I used that kind of extension was to extand a screamer, but then I would just use a locker and call it good.
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elnero
Dec 5, 2006, 6:29 PM
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This may be slightly off-topic, but when you say you're not supposed to girth hitch them, do you to eachother? or to anything at all? what about girth hitching though the tie-in points on a harness?
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grampacharlie
Dec 5, 2006, 6:50 PM
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I know the set up you are using and have seen it use by a climbing partner of mine. I"ve found that personally, the clove hitch to one biner does not give me any advantage to extening the sling.
That aside, a clove hitch on that thin of a material could generate a single point of wear rather than a random wear pattern such as would occur on an untied sling.
Slight chance, but there is also added pressure to the crossing strand of the clove hitch that could be likened to a scissoring action.
In short, I would not chance it. You could however add a rubber band or keeper to one end of your slings to avoid hitching it.
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drfelatio
Dec 5, 2006, 7:19 PM
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@tradrenn:
Dude, either you're confused as to what dbarandiaran is talking about or I'm confused as to what you're talking about. He isn't talking about extending his draw beyond the length of one runner (a procedure for which a locker is the best option IMO), he's talking about taking a tripled up sling (pass one biner through the other and clip the loop) and extending that same sling back out to full length. Now on one side of this sling he has clove hitched a biner so that all he has to do is unclip from the strands and pull. I find this to be very helpful because you don't have to fiddle with trying to re-clip just one of the strands. You simply unclip and pull.
And by all means, please correct me if I have misinterpreted your posts!
I would guess that a clove hitch on the biner would be OK, but I don't really know. While you do get some compression where the sling passes over itself, there isn't the severe turn that exists in the girth hitch. I think the jury might still be out on this issue so until we learn more about these skinny slings, it might be best to forgo the clove hitch and eliminate any problems it may or may not cause.
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cintune
Dec 5, 2006, 7:34 PM
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elnero wrote: This may be slightly off-topic, but when you say you're not supposed to girth hitch them, do you to eachother? or to anything at all? what about girth hitching though the tie-in points on a harness?
This is a better alternative to girthing one sling to another. http://www.climerware.com/cknot1.htm
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konaboy
Dec 5, 2006, 7:38 PM
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dbar :: I'm obviously interested in the best answer to this question, as I originally asked it in the thread re: the broken mammut sling. So far some people have said it's fine, other people have said it's not, and tradrenn is talking about something completely different. I've spent quite a while trying to answer my own question and found an article at planetfear.com http://www.planetfear.com/..._detail.asp?a_id=151 regarding using opposing nuts to make a solid placement where otherwise there is no option for pro. In the article there are pictures of a mammut skinny sling clove hitched to two biners, and they also explicitly mention using clove hitches to attach the slings to the biners in the reading.
The verdict is still probably out until pull tests can be done, but since I've been using the slings in such a configuration for some time without any problems and have also found an instance in the above article where the slings were used in such a configuration I'm going to continue to use the slings as such. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the wear on the slings will be primarily where the hitch is located which I can see would lead to premature wear in a single area, a valid concern, but I'll just get in the habit of disassembling and reassembling my trad draws every couple times I go out and use them.
(disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about, doing anything that I have mentioned above could cause broccoli to start growing from your fingertips!) 
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tradrenn
Dec 5, 2006, 10:44 PM
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elnero wrote: This may be slightly off-topic, but when you say you're not supposed to girth hitch them, do you to eachother? or to anything at all? what about girth hitching though the tie-in points on a harness?
No to all of it but that just me.
drfelatio wrote: Dude, either you're confused as to what dbarandiaran is talking about or I'm confused as to what you're talking about.
I was confused a bit.
In reply to: He isn't talking about extending his draw beyond the length of one runner (a procedure for which a locker is the best option IMO),
That's what I was talking about.
In reply to: he's talking about taking a tripled up sling (pass one biner through the other and clip the loop) and extending that same sling back out to full length. Now on one side of this sling he has clove hitched a biner so that all he has to do is unclip from the strands and pull. I find this to be very helpful because you don't have to fiddle with trying to re-clip just one of the strands. You simply unclip and pull.
I'm confused again.
konaboy wrote: dbar :: I'm obviously interested in the best answer to this question, as I originally asked it in the thread re: the broken mammut sling. So far some people have said it's fine, other people have said it's not, and tradrenn is talking about something completely different. I've spent quite a while trying to answer my own question and found an article at planetfear.com http://www.planetfear.com/..._detail.asp?a_id=151 regarding using opposing nuts to make a solid placement where otherwise there is no option for pro.
I wish OP put it the way you did, I wouldn't be as confused.
Good day to all of you.
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stymingersfink
Dec 6, 2006, 6:58 AM
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girth hitching can reduce the strength of the sling/cordage/rope 50% or more (afair)
a very technical paper on knot strength
with a very interesting section demonstrating knot weaknesses utilizing spaghetti tied in knots!
this page has some less-technical spreadsheet with relative knot strengths in a fairly easy to read format.
International Guild of Knot Tyers may be a good place to discover more information about knots and hitches.
FWIW, I have tried the clove'd extendable draw as you have described and discarded it as an unnecessarily limiting technique. Petzl "string" accomplishes the same thing, but again, discarded the technique as a frequent PITA.
ANY hitch or knot in cordage/sling material will weaken the material to some degree, it's just a matter of how much.
Girth-hitching is out in my book. See holdplease's TR about her experience with these hitches on Tribal Rite (?). She was lucky to live through it.
Clove hitches are frequently pulled out of my tool box for general use.
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drfelatio
Dec 6, 2006, 7:20 AM
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@tradrenn:
Check out this page for the "trick tripled runner"
http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttsport239/
To extend the sling back out to full length, you unclip one of the biners from the sling leaving 3 loops. Now you clip one of the loops and pull and the sling extends back out to its original length.
So what the OP is asking is, can one of those biners attach to the sling with a clove hitch?
The advantage here is 1.) A tight clove can help to keep the biner in place just like Petzl Stings do and 2.) after uncliping from the trippled draw you don't have to reclip since one of the strands is already clipped (via the clove). Saves time and effort.
But until we know more about these skinny slings I recommend forgoing the clove hitch until further testing has been done.
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