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thomasribiere
Jan 12, 2007, 8:41 AM
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It looks like more guys than usual are posting here. It looks like some of them post trolls (I moved one more again to the bin today).
Do you feel OK here? Is the moderation OK? Do you want to self-moderate your forum? DOn't hesitate to ask for a thread to be moved or the wrong posts to be split away.
(This post was edited by thomasribiere on Jan 12, 2007, 8:42 AM)
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uasunflower
Jan 12, 2007, 9:13 AM
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thomas, we love having you around - is that the kind of self-assertion thing you needed more than coffee this morning? 
otherwise, i think it's a kind of funny forum, with guys in the shadows and girls playing cats, but overall fun. What do you mean by 'self-moderation' btw?
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thomasribiere
Jan 12, 2007, 10:37 AM
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You ladies move away +/- harshly the irksome (funny word!) individuals by PMing them, by example. I remember in the very beginning I was here to have been outed by some girl here, probably a girl moderator... I have to say that I didn't come back for quite a while! This place IS NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN a second Campground, but its obvious position on top of the forums list makes it more visible and thus more visited by people who still don't understand a forum description.
(This post was edited by thomasribiere on Jan 12, 2007, 10:39 AM)
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stonefoxgirl
Jan 12, 2007, 12:22 PM
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I just said this to myself the other day! There is a particular dude that posts in just about every thread in the ladies room.......that creeps me out. Other than that I enjoy having the concentration of/label to post here in the Ladies Room. Keep it!
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happiegrrrl
Jan 12, 2007, 6:19 PM
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Thanks for addressing the problem.
Get the troll posts out quickly and without fanfare.
Their posts/threads are easily recognizeable. Don't allow them the time to raise the ire of the forum. By allowing them any amount of time here, they get to "enjoy" perpetuating what is tantamount to a crank phone call. The caller doesn't expect to be taken seriously; their "kick" is that they've offended the callee. Some people are just dysfunctional, and that's the level they seek.
These trollers do what they are doing because they want the attention from the forum posters, even if the attention is negative. They probably even enjoy the posts from males who come to the forum's defense because, by virtue of the internet, they "can't be touched." In real life, they'd get a punh in the face, but here they can get away with it.
As well, when the user is "anonymous" (as in a known user under a second identity) - if the moderators are able to connect the id's, I would suggest the tarpit(is that still used?) for some period of time, with a warning that another infracation causes them to be kicked out.
It's one thing to be up to hinjix in the Communtiy Campground. The Ladies Room was not created to be a Community Forum.
Oh yeah.....get the Ladies Room out of Community, while you're at it. That change will cut down the crap in itself.
I know that many people, women included, don't feel as strongly as I do about this topic, but allowing objectification/degradation of women on the site to run rampant is not cool and will degrade the energy of the place until the userbase consists of a bunch of pubescent boys who never get any, using the site as a surrogate circle jerk.
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iamthewallress
Jan 12, 2007, 7:09 PM
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I often appreciate the male point of veiw on female issues.
Guys particating in the discusions is, IMO, better that than (male) mods/admins taking the reins to protect us from trolls, rude comments, and 'empower us in supportive environment'. Personally, I'm partial to getting strong in challenging environment.
So, I say, bring on the alpha-males and the female-curious and let us sort it out ourselves.
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blonde_loves_bolts
Jan 12, 2007, 11:44 PM
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There's nothing wrong with guys respectfully posting in the ladies' room; I just stopped coming in as often because 1) I'm still tripped out by the new site formatting, and 2) as profound and necessary as these threads sometimes can be, one can only read so many boyfriend threads before retreating back to the greater depths of scummunity.
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macherry
Jan 13, 2007, 12:40 AM
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what happy said........and what BLB said.
i would hope the My boyfreind/girlfriend won't/will/ can't climb whaaa threads could disappear.
I do like some of the discussions that happen in here, but the trolls must be taken care of quickly. I don't mind guys posting in here, but guys, i really don't want to hear about your girlfriends that can't climb and i don't want to help you with your relationship.
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klippa_klattra
Jan 13, 2007, 6:59 AM
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that is exactly how I feel.
It is frustraiting when most of the topics are based on boyfriend, or girlfriend issues... makes me not want to check out the thread thinking it will be the same old stuff...
mabe if people realized they could see older discussions about the exact same topic....? would that help?
I do like this forum and the honest responses that come form the people who view it.... thanks gals.. (and the couple guys).
over all, I feel it is a good environment.
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htotsu
Jan 13, 2007, 8:50 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: I know that many people, women included, don't feel as strongly as I do about this topic, but allowing objectification/degradation of women on the site to run rampant is not cool and will degrade the energy of the place until the userbase consists of a bunch of pubescent boys who never get any, using the site as a surrogate circle jerk.
YEAH, THAT. I have been so disgusted lately by some of the threads/posts. It's bad enough that these hard up male adolescent morons bother to post their graphically sexual commentary, but the fact that they assume their audiences are equally hard up male adolescent morons does NOT help. Yes there is a ladies room forum, but that does not make the rest of RC.com a men's locker room.
Anyway, as for the original question, thanks for asking. I'll just note that long ago I and others posted in suggestions that this forum needs to be NOT in Community and NOT at the top of the freakin page.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 13, 2007, 3:15 PM
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htotsu wrote: It's bad enough that..., but the fact that they assume their audiences are equally hard up male adolescent morons does NOT help. Yes there is a ladies room forum, but that does not make the rest of RC.com a men's locker room.
NO KDDING! I am SO with you on this. I do understand that there are "guys that will be guys," but the message coming through is not subtle. The message is "RC.com is a place where you can go and post fantasy statements about women. We will not only encourage it, but will snicker right along with you."
It's my observation that Rc.com has a fairly high percentage of female who actively contribute to the site. Though climbing was considered a man's sort of thing for much of the 1900's, times have changed. Women aren't regaled to staying at home, washing dishes and keeping those tighty whity's white.
It occurred to me to wonder what the ratio of male to female climbers is, in 2007. So, I did a quick search....of course it is inadequate, and luckily I am not too prone to obsessive projects.... What I found(in one page's search under "statistics on ratio of male to female rock climbers") was the following:
http://www.tuolumnemeadows.org/index.php?action=stats
Male to Female Ratio: 2.5:1
http://www.neclimbs.com/...dex.php?action=stats
Male to Female Ratio: 5.8:1
I would like to ask 3 questions; Firstly - What is the Male to Female ratio at rc.com? Secondly - Among the top...oh, I don't know....100 or so users, what is the ratio(Surely you have this information)? And thirdly - Why IS the degradation/objectification of women not only tacitly accepted - but encourgaed - at rc.com?
If management feels it is so necessary to the existence of this site to allow for softcore porn shots on their MOST VISITED FORUM(ie; Campgorund. Or am I wrong? And yes, some of those pictures do fall into that category) - why not put up a "Men's Locker Room" forum? Why not? Not only do I suggest rc.com implement it as an experiment, I dare them to do it.
Make it a "not work/child safe" forum. Let them have at it. Let them post whatever the hell it is they want, within whatever parameters rc.com management decides ought to prevail.
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iamthewallress
Jan 13, 2007, 5:52 PM
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Are you ladies just griping that you don't like the romance threads, or are you requesting that they be moderated away?
The best way to deal w/ content that you don't like, IMO, is to create more content that you do like. If people participate in the 'other' threads instead of the ones that you find very worthy, then the LCD of this group doesn't fit your interests.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 13, 2007, 5:58 PM
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I have never had a problem with any number of the "my b/f dumped me, my b/f is a jerk, my b/f thinks I should...my b/f whatever" threads.
I think that when one of the girlita's in suffering(no matter how temporarily), it won't be much of a salve on the wound to do a search and see she's not the first....
Venting, on the other hand, is therapeutic.
The issue within this thread I am on (if it isn't obvious....) is that dopey guys come in here and act dopey.... and also, the bigger picture of how the site, at times, fosters an atmosphere that allows that to flourish.
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htotsu
Jan 13, 2007, 10:51 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: why not put up a "Men's Locker Room" forum? Why not? Not only do I suggest rc.com implement it as an experiment, I dare them to do it. Make it a "not work/child safe" forum. Let them have at it. Let them post whatever the hell it is they want, within whatever parameters rc.com management decides ought to prevail.
now THAT is an idea... they did create a separate forum for "soapbox" and that seems to be going strong. Why not this? Then I would never have to look at thread titles about "getting a piece of Britney's ass" and the like because it would be in a forum I already know I have no interest in opening. SECONDED.
Wallress, someone mentioned that the depression about breakups with boyfriend threads may become tiresome to that person, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that they be deleted/moderated. And they aren't tiresome to everyone.
As for me, it's more when guys post in here as though they are in Community that gets me very irritated. Oh yeah, THEY ARE IN COMMUNITY. Did I mention that I think this is stupid? So let's say, as though they are in "campground."
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 15, 2007, 12:16 AM
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I have had a look at the forum lists and can't really find an apropriate spot to which to send the Ladies Forum if it was decided to send it to another area of the site.
This forum really does belong in the community area of the site. I like the idea of quick moderation. I also would like to suggest that if a thread is started by one of those pubescent morons that none of the inhabitants of this forum make any sort of a reply to those threads. Resist the temptation to give them any sort of recognition. The thread will go to the recycle bin soon enough anyway. By adding a reply you give then the validation they so sorely seek.
Do feel free to give a yell via PM to any of the mods currenlty on line if you see any post out of order for this forum.
I hear rumblings in this thread of discontent with the current series of Mens threads in the campground forum. You'll notice that I edited the title to the one particular thread where people are posting half nekkid pics to, I placed a NSFW notice in the title to that thread. Posters should also be adhering to the rule that requires NSFW be placed on the post as well. If any of you ladies feel strongly enough that an image is inapropriate or has overstepped the bounds of decency then do feel free to take it up in the thread in question. Make your case to the members directly. This is the essence of civil society and our philosphy of self moderation. If the members are taking things too far then it is up to the members to take up the cudgels and bring the members back in line. The power is in your hands. Use it.
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htotsu
Jan 15, 2007, 3:51 AM
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philbox wrote: I have had a look at the forum lists and can't really find an apropriate spot to which to send the Ladies Forum if it was decided to send it to another area of the site.
philbox wrote: I hear rumblings in this thread of discontent with the current series of Mens threads in the campground forum. You'll notice that I edited the title to the one particular thread where people are posting half nekkid pics to, I placed a NSFW notice in the title to that thread. Posters should also be adhering to the rule that requires NSFW be placed on the post as well. If any of you ladies feel strongly enough that an image is inapropriate or has overstepped the bounds of decency then do feel free to take it up in the thread in question. Make your case to the members directly. This is the essence of civil society and our philosphy of self moderation. If the members are taking things too far then it is up to the members to take up the cudgels and bring the members back in line. The power is in your hands. Use it.
Do you realize that you note how the power is in the hands of the users, and in the same post you tell us how you stepped in to change the title of a thread? So, evidently, there's some work on both sides. In here we can try to ignore obvious trolls (as we often do) so they get no response. But Mods have a role to play, too. You can do better than to tell us that all we have to do in Campground is open and reply to the threads we already don't want to participate in, especially when your advice in here is to ignore them entirely. In there they are not trolls.
Someone has already come up with a way to approach this that satisfies the whole NSFW issue... in fact, how about a NSFW forum so all of it, topics, photos and polls, can be in one place for anyone - male or female - who wants to partake? So now you have two suggestions. I'd like a response. Thanks.
(This post was edited by htotsu on Jan 15, 2007, 3:53 AM)
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philbox
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Jan 15, 2007, 4:48 AM
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Of course you will get a response htotsu, no need to be demanding, we are simply having a friendly chat to see how we can all work together to better the forum and the site in general.
The owners are quite firm that the community forums stay at the top of the pile as that is where most of the traffic to the webiste goes to. Always has been and always will be. Even though a lot of smack is discussed in the campground forum a lot is also discussed about climbing too and by and large members helpfully remind each other that this is a climbing website after all.
I like your suggestion about making this forum viewable for registered members only. I doubt very much that that will happen for the campground or the soapbox though.
I've always been of the view that this website is a work in progress, always has been and always will be. Thus the need to discuss how the members feel about individual forums and their placement etc. Yes, the site management can be quite inflexible about some things but given enough time and presenting a valid case in clear, concise, civil and diplomatic language can certainly shift their thinking. A lot of issues notwithstanding can be fairly trivial to implement and often are. Then there are the big issues that take a radical mindshift to implement such as embedded images which happened recently after having been quite firmly declared to be off the agenda for all time.
A mens room forum has been discussed many times in the past and it has been decided by many of the Ladies present that that would be a bad idea. It was felt that the whole site was pretty much a mens room forum and the Ladies Room forum was created as a safe environment for the ladies on the site to retreat to. A safe place to discuss distinctly womens issues and anything else that floats your boat away from the full glare of the likes of Curt, jt512 et al. The myriad of useless trolls who turn up on a daily basis could also be a pain in the neck if not kept under control.
In reply to: You can do better than to tell us that all we have to do in Campground is open and reply to the threads we already don't want to participate in, especially when your advice in here is to ignore them entirely. In there they are not trolls.
I'm confused by your grammar in the above quoted section of your post. No, I am not being a grammar nazi, just displaying my inability to translate your meaning. Please expand or change the text so that I can follow your thoughts. I am trying to completely understand what you are wanting to say.
In the mean time I shall take up your suggestions with ddt and sangiro and the other mods in the mods and eds forum.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 15, 2007, 5:02 AM
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philbox wrote: The owners are quite firm that the community forums stay at the top of the pile as that is where most of the traffic to the webiste goes to. Always has been and always will be.
....Milk.
That's right. Milk.
How many supermarkets, delis, or even quicky mart gas stations have the milk right there in the front of the store? Not a one. Nowhere, no how. Because they KNOW the customer's are going to buy the milk. They also know that a significant proprtion of store visits occure becaue, and only because, the person needed a carton of milk.
So what do they do? They place the milk waaaaaaaaaaaaay down back, through a maze of ofther brightly packaged, loudly marketed...other stuff. Knowing the customer will not think to sheild their eyes from the glare. befoe they're halfway down the aisle...they're HomerSimpsoning to themselves "mmmm...dounts..." and by the time they get to that milk, they've got to juggle the jumble of stuff they've collected.
Milk is never on sale. Milk is never placed in jazzy containers. About the only milk frou-frouing that goes on is vintage-look glass bottles and organics( which have nearly kicked the old milk right out of the cold case... what are those poor inorganic cows going to do!?)
Beer. Same thing.
Moral of the story?
Even if Community was put waaaaaaay back, through a maze of other forums, in a dingy little corner, even with a locked door that you had to ask for the key to get in.....they would go there because...
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htotsu
Jan 15, 2007, 7:46 AM
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Perfect analogy, Happiegirl. It's at the top now because this is the format of the other site by these owners, so if it doesn't move it's likely due to that. But I'll add that if traffic has always been highest in Community, then that means its location at the bottom of the page on the old site was not a hindrance.
As for members only viewing, I always assumed the forum got its name because it was supposed to be for the eyes of the Community of rc.com members. But first things first - if the Ladies Room can be members only that's a start.
philbox wrote: Of course you will get a response htotsu, no need to be demanding, we are simply having a friendly chat to see how we can all work together to better the forum and the site in general.
philbox wrote: A mens room forum has been discussed many times in the past and it has been decided by many of the Ladies present that that would be a bad idea. It was felt that the whole site was pretty much a mens room forum
philbox wrote: Please expand or change the text so that I can follow your thoughts. I am trying to completely understand what you are wanting to say.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to discuss these ideas in the mods/eds forum.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 15, 2007, 1:38 PM
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I can also say, from experience, that any woman asking "the men" or even one in particular, to remove offensive material that pertains to the degradation/objectification of women will be quickly and soundly made fun of by at least one male.
I've had experineces where comments such as getting to read "Isn't it always the ones who have no chance whatsoever of having their photo posted on a porn site who always complain(when I supported a photographer who was angry someone had stolen his online images of women climbing, and posted them to what was supposedly a hard core porn site).
Got to go to work, so don't have time for others but.....telling women to ask the guys to tone it down - in community - is one of those ideas that you will wonder "oh...yeah. What was I thinking." If you think about it.
It's a delicate issue - the general seual content in Community....and truth - it is a big draw for a large number of the users. I mean - they do call this site rc.n00b for a reason. The mentality towards women fits the image, in some aspects.
I know that guys do tend to love women. That's fine and wonderful. I like guys who like women. And I believe that if you said "no soft pron or anything borderline to it" in Campground, you'd have a very big outcry.
Funny, though...that you tell people to take talk of politics, religion and guns out of the general group. But debasing threads about women is suitable.
I'm just saying.....
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macherry
Jan 15, 2007, 6:24 PM
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thanks for everyone's input. I agree with happie's points. I would never tread into a thread and ask guys to tone it down. Even as a mod, i've had to step in and i've been taken to task.............it ain't fun.
All mods should be sensitive to this content
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comet
Jan 15, 2007, 9:01 PM
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I'm adding a vote to move the community forums down the page. There is no good reason to have them at the top, particularly the ladies' room. Returning the ladies' room to registered-user-only also seems like a good idea.
I wish people would post purely relationship-based posts in campground, rather than the ladies' room, when they are not climbing-related, but I'm generally in favor of minimizing moderation (trolls excepted).
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 15, 2007, 9:34 PM
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Let me now move the discussion towards where I think the general feeling lies as expressed by you in this thread. I like to deal with broad brush issues and the underpinnings of a philosophical base rather than get bogged down in semantics of the nit picky issues which can often obscure the end result.
So to put it simply. The ladies of this website have an issue with the sexualisation of the campground forum since that forum and the site in general has become more relaxed about the posting of embedded images and pictures generally. What I can say about that is that where once upon a time back in the ye olde rc.com world the mods would take a hard line aproach on any images that even hinted at some bare flesh the new rc.com has a more relaxed policy for images portraying nekkid flesh.
Now it would be nice to think that the mods of this site can achieve a balanced aproach towards this new policy and know exactly where to draw the line at which we do not allow the display of inapropriate images. Of course the members will test the limits of the new boundaries and the mods will once again be the meat in the sandwich and they will be seen as the bad nazi mods for daring to remove any image aproaching or stepping over that arbitrary line. Guess what, the mods are human too and they get tired of being constantly attacked for trying to do the right thing.
No we do not want this site to become a sleezy pole dancing strip club for under age prepubescent non climbing boys. We do want this place to be a reasonably comfortable place where you girls can head into threads without fear of being assaulted through your eyes. We do have the policy of insisting that users place the NSFW notice on posts that may offend some viewers.
Now where should we draw the line in the sand for those images that step over the bounds of decency and become in effect either soft pron or otherwise inapropriate material that we do not want on the site. I've personally removed some very inapropriate material and sent warnings or outright bans to those committing such offences. It becomes very subjective though when the boundaries are aproached.
I suggest that if any of you happen to open a NSFW post thinking that it won't be too bad and you find that it is extremely offensive then you should immediately aproach a mod to alert them and they will take the apropriate action. In other words I am saying that we need your help in finding out where the boundaries lie and that it is not known yet where that boundary does lie. It will probably always be so.
I am also suggesting that where an image is thought to lie somewhere near the edges of that boundary and if we deem it worthy of deletion that we will take no further action against the user except to simply let them know that the boundary was aproached and that the image was removed. For grossly over the top pron then we have no hesitation in removing it and instituting a ban on the user.
Oh yes htotsu sorry if I misinterpreted you in relation to the "demanding" tone I saw. The fault lies with not being able to see body language and facial expressions. As always the text based conversations of the internet are a poor cousin to real life debate.
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happiegrrrl
Jan 15, 2007, 11:08 PM
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Your entire last post, Phil, addresses a secondary, side issue, and NOT the one that is the core of this thread(correct me if I am wrong, ladies).
Your post completely disregards the issues that were the primary concepts expressed in this thread.
1) The primary concern is for The Ladies Room Forum.
The Campground free for all is an aside, and shouldn't, truthfully, be getting much discussion in this thread, since many Campgrounders would be unaware it is even being discussed. It's sort of a waste of time to take anything we said here as something other than opinions to take to management for discussion.
While some of us have voiced very strong opinions on that matter - I believe we did so to back up our opinions on what is going on in the Ladies Room.... Though they are, in a way, related, for all intents and purposes, they are separate issues.
2) Trolling in Ladies Room - THAT is the big concern. Fake threads made to create drama.
3) Innapropriate responses to threads in this forum.
4) The belief that these abuses are incresed because
a - the Ladies Room is at the top of the page
b - a person need not be a registered memebr to view the content.
Hey - I am well aware that MANY people have utterly no idea that the things being put up on this site, and the prevailng attitude is not really femme friendly. Attitudes and beliefs are deeply ingrained and a person often can't see the forest for the trees.
I don't expect that rc.com will fully address the things pointed out here. The site "is what it is," and has evolved into that entity over time.
But what CAN be addressed is the ladies room.
1) Move Campground down the page.
2) Move Ladies Room down the page. Put it in the Clubs section.... Remane the category if management thinks it's wrong...Call it "Specialized Interests" or something.
3) Make forums between Campground and Ladies Room
And...since I am the one who did start the softcore pron conversation - a suggestion might be to add the sexual content topics to the "Soap Box" section. I mena, realy, it sounds "right" doesn't it - to say "politics, religion, guns, sexual content" - no?
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 15, 2007, 11:32 PM
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Thanks happy for getting this discussion back on track and for clearly putting the issues on the table in dot point form. That is very helpful.
I can tell you that the site owners have expressed a firm opinion since day one of creating the site that they see the community forums as being best up the top. You all put forward a clear and concise case for a review of this policy though. I am not the person who will make this decision though. Let me be clear on that. I can though make very strong recommendations. I am being persuaded towards the rightness of your cause.
I am on your side as far as 4b goes. I would definitely like for that change to be made.
Yes, I too am concerned about trolling in the ladies room forum and that may not change a great deal although having the forum viewable by registered members only will attenuate that somewhat. On that matter though I am still awaiting a response from the site owners who would be the guys who would implement this if it were at all possible.
Hopefully before too long Daniel will happen by and address more of the issues raised.
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