|
|
|
|
deolmstead
Jan 23, 2007, 7:37 PM
Post #1 of 21
(2724 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2007
Posts: 6
|
A bit about me: I'm a 30 year-old male and brand-new to climbing (about a month in). I'm about five months into a "get-fit" regime that has really turned my life around. I've dropped 35 pounds and have been going to the gym a couple times every week for kickboxing and cycling.
A friend turned me on to climbing a few weeks ago and I've been toproping at the local gym (Ironworks in Berkeley, CA) at every opportunity since. I'm hooked, and looking to improve. Unfortunately Ironworks is a pain to get to (no car), and the YMCA is much closer, so I've been looking to improve my climbing with a supplemental training regimen as much as possible, knowing that the best training is the actual climbing when I can do it at Ironworks.
I asked a PT at the Y what he recommended, and he asked if I wanted to train for endurance or strength. I was stumped..."well, both." I definitely need to be stronger, I know, to get over the overhangs and around the tricky corners on the wall, but at the moment I'm burnt after four or five climbs and definitely need better endurance. The workouts he laid out for me are very different (high weight low reps vs low weight high reps), and I don't know which I should be doing, or if I should split the difference or alternate them every month or something.
So which is it for me at this level? I'm a pretty typical ectomorph (6'4") so gaining muscle is difficult for me, I'd like to be going about it as optimally as possible.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
|
|
|
|
|
silascl
Jan 23, 2007, 7:49 PM
Post #2 of 21
(2707 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 225
|
Where do you live in the bay area? There's lots of real rock and gyms to go to if Ironworks is not convenient.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Jan 23, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #3 of 21
(2703 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
I'd say, do both, why not... Most "general conditioning" work-out routines that I've seen alternate power and endurance days.
You won't be training climbing-specific endurance or power, and I doubt that you would see any effect on your climbing from training at the Y, but hey, if you can't go climbing ,at least you are being active and not sitting on your backside.
BUt IMO, if you put all the effort into finding ways to get to the climbing gym, you would come up with some arrangement that will work.
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Jan 23, 2007, 7:57 PM
Post #4 of 21
(2700 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
Wow - congrats on making so many positive life changes.
You're asking a really good question, and, like most good questions there is not a clear answer. It depends on whether you want to periodize or if you just want gradual improvement. The truth of the matter is that, whatever your answer, you will end up training both, it's just that periodization would separate these activities out (you would only focus on one for a given period and then move on to the next) whereas gradual training would allow you to steadily improve and train both during each training session.
For a good comparison, check out Rockprodigy's article on periodization and then compare this with Fluxus' training protocols in The Self Coached Climber. Personally, I don't think you'll go wrong with either, it's more a matter of your personal goals.
Good luck!
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Jan 23, 2007, 8:17 PM
Post #5 of 21
(2685 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
Many new climbers have trouble with finger strength and endurance. I suspect that when you say you're burned out after 4-5 climbs, it's your hands and forearms you're talking about. Unfortunately, it is doubtful that the Y (or any other standard gym, for that matter) will have the tools you'll need to focus on developing this area.
You may want to consider purchasing a hangboard. (Search this site for descriptions, workouts, schedules, etc.). You can put it up at your home and get a focused workout on days you can't make it to the gym.
WARNING: You can really hurt yourself on a hangboard. Read up on them first and start off slow and easy. The gains come over time and there is no point in overdoing it in any single workout. I cannot emphasize this enough. Others will tell you the same.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
dbrayack
Jan 23, 2007, 8:25 PM
Post #6 of 21
(2675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 1260
|
No offense meant, but seriously just go climbing lots. 
Its the best training for anyone, but as big as your are, if you're going to be putting a lot of wear and tear on your joints (I'm lucky being short and light)
It takes years to build up finger tendons and that sort of thing, so training may lead to injury which'll put you out in a big way.
Besides, climbing is more fun than training right?
Get out there any have some fun! (And you don't need to be stronger, you need to use your feet more, find a nice sweet girl who thinks your hot stuff, she'll teach you how be graceful etc.)
I've always considered climbing more of a "dance" routine than a power event..but then I'm a slab climber; what do I know?
-Danno
|
|
|
|
|
dbrayack
Jan 23, 2007, 8:28 PM
Post #7 of 21
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 1260
|
As far as the car situation, I would meet some friends at the gym, offer them beer and gas money and have them take you climbing outdoors somewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jan 23, 2007, 8:54 PM
Post #8 of 21
(2653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
deolmstead wrote: So which is it for me at this level? I'm a pretty typical ectomorph (6'4") so gaining muscle is difficult for me, I'd like to be going about it as optimally as possible. Thanks in advance for your advice.
Neither.
Work on technique, first and foremost. Strength and endurance will come with time, but for now concentrate on using the least amount of energy by using better and better technique.
T
|
|
|
|
|
majoringinclimbing
Jan 23, 2007, 9:22 PM
Post #9 of 21
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2003
Posts: 169
|
I would say technique!! But all three will come with hours spent climbing!
Matt
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Jan 23, 2007, 9:29 PM
Post #10 of 21
(2619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
Let's find one diamond in the misinformation here:
dbrayack wrote: No offense meant, but seriously just go climbing lots. .... It takes years to build up finger tendons and that sort of thing, so training may lead to injury which'll put you out in a big way.
The "just climb" mantra might be okay for some noobs that just want to climb, but this guy is specifically asking about training. Moreover, if you understood training, you'd realize that training is more likely to prevent injury than lead to injury because, if done properly, training is very systematic, well-thought out, and controlled. In contrast, "just climb" is random and readily lends itself to people trying to climb things they have no business climbing. If it takes years to build the strength - why not do it in a safe and planned manner? Isn't that better than just choosing random routes and problems?
dbrayack wrote: Besides, climbing is more fun than training right?
While this is true, the underlying implication is that training is not fun which is false. Lots of people enjoy training. In fact, I'd contend that if you haven't found a way to enjoy training then you probably have issues regarding goal attainment and dedication. In this case, the OP has had success acheiving goals, so why not fuel that instead of diluting it with the "just have fun" mantra which is often a cop-out for fear of achieving anything.
dbrayack wrote: Get out there any have some fun! (And you don't need to be stronger, you need to use your feet more, find a nice sweet girl who thinks your hot stuff, she'll teach you how be graceful etc.) I've always considered climbing more of a "dance" routine than a power event..but then I'm a slab climber; what do I know?
This is good advice. Climbing is fun and thinking of it as a dance rather than a muscular exercise can be a healthy way of approaching it. That said, there is nothing wrong with "power" in climbing. The point is to develop a broad range of skills (as opposed to simply being a slab climber). Training enables that. There is nothing wrong with strength in climbing either. Once again, training develops strength. It also enables fast and controlled progression which I think most athletes desire.
|
|
|
|
|
miademus
Jan 24, 2007, 10:55 AM
Post #11 of 21
(2571 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 511
|
you're a slab climber?
|
|
|
|
|
andesite
Jan 24, 2007, 11:55 AM
Post #12 of 21
(2560 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2003
Posts: 10
|
Hi - my advice - don't bother with trying to get this type of info off a forum on the net - everyone has their own pet theory and you have no way of knowing whether all these opinionated people actually have a clue... or even climb.
Rather consult some of the excellent books on training for climbing - I can recommend both 'Performance Rock Climbing' by Dale Goddard & Udo Neumann, and 'How to Climb 5.12' by Eric J Horst. A common thread at the start of both these books is that climbing is enormously a skill-based activity, not simply a test of strength and endurance. For a beginner climber, the improvement in performance due to gaining skill is so huge compared to the gain from strength/endurance training, that it makes any time invested in strength/endurance training counter-productive to climbing performance improvement. Spend that time climbing - anything - plastic holds on a climbing wall, bouldering, find some urban feature you can train on - stone walls, even climbing a tree is probably a more worthwhile investment of your time.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Jan 24, 2007, 12:15 PM
Post #13 of 21
(2553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
for the time being, just climb and have fun. all beginner shold focus on their technique and start with specific training only after they have developed at least a good technical base.
|
|
|
|
|
bagre_rei
Jan 24, 2007, 1:20 PM
Post #14 of 21
(2537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 22
|
andesite wrote: Rather consult some of the excellent books on training for climbing - I can recommend both 'Performance Rock Climbing' by Dale Goddard & Udo Neumann, and 'How to Climb 5.12' by Eric J Horst. A common thread at the start of both these books is that climbing is enormously a skill-based activity, not simply a test of strength and endurance.
But since the OP asked specifically about general conditioning, I'd like to add that both authors recommend it in the beginning. Itīs not exactly climbing training, but rather a base. It helps if your big muscles aren't flacid.
Periodization rules everywhere. I would do three months of endurance and one month strength.
But remember: It's not climbing training. Per se, it will not make you climb any harder. You will have to climb a lot to get into the intermediate levels and after that train specifically to advance.
|
|
|
|
|
microbarn
Jan 24, 2007, 2:09 PM
Post #15 of 21
(2522 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
|
Here are some recommendations with the goals that support them. The goals I am listing are going to be different from a lot of the other standard RC.com recommendations because their recommendations often come strictly from wanting to climb better at the cost of everything else.
It seems as though you are interested in the weight loss aspect. So, my first impulse is to tell you to go for the endurance. This will apply to all weights. So, you will do high reps and low weight.
The power you need from climbing will probably come from climbing. So, I don't think there is a need to work that specificly prior to knowing the technique.
Running is good. So, you can throw that in anywhere any time.
My goal is for general overall fitness and reduced injury. So, I encourage you to consider doing a general workout the PT would recommend for endurance, but paying particular attention to the muscles that oppose standard climbing muscles. So, work on push muscles. I am not saying to do more weight here, but a larger variety of push excersizes. This will allow you to hit all of the supporting muscles.
Finally, I believe the most important muscles to work are the abs, back (upper and lower) and chest. I believe the arms can only be as strong as what they are attached to.
|
|
|
|
|
dbrayack
Jan 24, 2007, 2:32 PM
Post #16 of 21
(2512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 1260
|
I base a lot of my training/advice out of Eric Horst's
"Training for Climbing"
Its a good book and goes through pretty much everything you every want to know about training for climbing.
Its available here:
http://trainingforclimbing.com/new/books.shtml
If you don't want to spot the cash, I'd sift through the online replies, see what applies/appeals to you and go for it!
Have fun man; But remember, to be a good climbing, it isn't a hobby, but rather a lifestyle. 
-Danno
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 24, 2007, 4:26 PM
Post #17 of 21
(2473 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
deolmstead wrote: A bit about me: I'm a 30 year-old male and brand-new to climbing (about a month in). I'm about five months into a "get-fit" regime that has really turned my life around. I've dropped 35 pounds and have been going to the gym a couple times every week for kickboxing and cycling.
The reality is that there is virtually nothing you can do at the Y that will improve your strength or endurance in a manner that will translate to improved climbing. Gym apparatuses just aren't very good at simulating climbing movement and body position. Thus, if you want to improve your climbing, you will have to bite the bullet and make frequent journeys to the climbing gym or the crags.
If improving your climbing isn't important enough to get you to make those frequent journeys, then keep kickboxing and cycling at the Y to maintain or improve body leanness. You can add pull-ups, weighted pull-ups, and leg-lift type exercises to build upper body and core strength, but don't expect much carryover to climbing; and round off your workouts with moderate exercise of the remaining muscles, to prevent injury due to muscle imbalances.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Jan 25, 2007, 4:01 PM
Post #18 of 21
(2379 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
I misread the initial question. I assumed you were wanting to train "strength" or "endurance" vis-a-vis climbing, not using free weights. That said, I agree with Jay, gaining strength via weight lifting isn't going to help you get through tricky moves. However, it will help your overall conditioning, help to prevent injury, and build more muscle to speed up your metabolism thereby reducing your body weight and lessening the load on your fingers. So, I'd say find a periodized program, preferably one that emphasizes total-body/multi-joint moves (deadlifts, pullups, pushups, squats, etc.).
Aside:
When a noob asks for advice, people come out of the woodwork chanting "just climb." If the person wants to max out at 5.8, then fine. But in general, people are asking how to improve because they want to (drum roll) improve. In this case "just climb" is horrible advice. It advocates randomness above structure and ignorance over knowledge. Training ensures progress and avoids injuries common to beginners. It provides a gradual process that enables the learning of technique, the development of strength, and the ability to think for yourself. I think any noob that really wants to learn how to climb needs to voraciously read the available books on training and then begin applying those principles and recording their progress. Others have suggested that this ruins the "fun" of climbing (another popular but similarly stupid catch phrase), but I'd suggest that these people haven't learned how to train effectively if they can't enjoy the process.
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Jan 25, 2007, 4:14 PM
Post #19 of 21
(2373 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
As a beginner, you need to be training *TECHNIQUE*. The largest gains will come when you learn to properly balance, move, and make use of the assets you currently have.
Physical training only benefits rock climbers at the very peak of the game. Until you get into the upper levels, climbing is much more about technical maneuvering than raw pulling power. A lot of the holds you run into simply won't allow grabbing and cranking, and you better learn to move off them anyway.
There is no better training for climbing than climbing, very simply. Some weight work won't hurt (especially to balance your physique and avoid the terrible posture and future-orthopedic problems many climbers have), and cardio helps keep a decent wind in you, but if you really want to climb better, you have to climb more and climb harder. Period.
|
|
|
|
|
deolmstead
Jan 25, 2007, 10:03 PM
Post #20 of 21
(2337 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2007
Posts: 6
|
Thanks to all for your advice. It is a bit bewildering, but there was much of use in there.
A couple points: the weight loss is done, basically. After five more pounds I'll be at my target BMI of 22, and I'm not really interested in going below that and becoming a stick figure.
I know that my weakest link is technique, despite the fact that the other links - strength and endurance - are also quite weak. The thing is that I can only work technique by climbing, whereas I think that you CAN, to some degree, abstract the other two. Sure the positioning isn't exactly the same, but it isn't as if I'm using a separate set of muscles to climb than the set I'm using for everything else, and it isn't as if working out at the Y is doing any sort of harm.
To that end, I think I AM going to focus on endurance, if only because it means I will have more opportunity per visit to to the rockclimbing gym to focus on my technique. But I read the periodization article and liked what it had to say, so at the moment I'm thinking I will go for a 3 month/1 month balance, or something like that.
I've ordered some books from Amazon - Training for Climbing, The Self-Coached Climber, and the Rock Warrior's Way - hopefully those will help as well, because to be honest I feel at sea about technique as well - there doesn't seem to be much support at Ironworks for training, rather they just provide the "rocks" and we're left to work it out for ourselves how to climb them. There have been several moments on a wall where I've been looking at the handhold I know I need to get to and thinking to myself, "how the hell is that supposed to work?" So I think I'm going to try and befriend a couple more advanced climbers who can show me, or start doing climbs after watching others do them.
I'm also looking at maybe starting a Yoga class at the Y, to work on balance and flexibility, which would hopefully help with the "dance" aspect of RC.
(This post was edited by deolmstead on Jan 25, 2007, 10:07 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Jan 25, 2007, 10:12 PM
Post #21 of 21
(2330 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
I think you have made some solid choices, particularly in choosing books and in seeking out new partners.
I also think you are very astute in avoiding the trap of dichotomizing strength and technique - they are obviously interdependent, and talking about them as two separate things fails to recognize what actually occurs as people climb - ("hey, that guy just did a figure 4 - is it strength or technique?" I'd say try it yourself and it's obvious from the flailing and the burn in your arms that both are involved). I digress.
Also, I'd recommend reading a bit more regarding periodization and weightlifting. A 3 month endurance, 1 month power routine won't really help much. At the end of the first 6 weeks you'll have plateaued and your next 6 weeks will be a waste. Read a bit more about this on sites that have training programs for athletes (not body builders). At worst, use the workout from hell.
Good luck!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
