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klopik
Jan 31, 2007, 8:13 AM
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Hello, ladies (and non-ladies) ;)
I had myself a lovely bouldeirng day today, and I was just reminded again just how much I suck at overhangs!!! I have absolutely no arm strength...
I have really good balance and I picked up enough technique, but as soon as there is an overhang - which most of the bouldering problems are in my gym - I am falling off like a bag of potatoes...
Help, help!!! What can I do to make myself stronger????
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overlord
Jan 31, 2007, 8:36 AM
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overhangs, especially easier ones are not so arm-strength intensive as you might believe. its all about technique (turning in the hips, sneaky things like heelhooks, stuff like that). believe me, i have helped some lady friends with this and non actually required more strength than they gained while learning technique. and all have improved really fast, in about 2 months or so starting from virtual zero.
but if you MUST train, i recommend pullups, with some biceps curls. but be warned, pullups can actually impede your technical progress as they promote frontal climbing.
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granite_grrl
Jan 31, 2007, 1:08 PM
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I would like to have more upper body strength, especially lockoff strength, but you've gotta work with what you've got.
If I'm at the gym working on overhanging routes all night its my legs and ass that are sore the next day, not so much my arms and back. What does that tell you?
Of course now I'm scewed....I've still gotta work on upper body, but my right leg is soooooo weak right now. I'm finding it much harder to climb not being able to push and pull with my legs the same way.
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htotsu
Jan 31, 2007, 1:17 PM
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Hello. Well, I defer to those who stress technique. That said, as a general upper-body strength thing, it's not a bad idea to start with something you can do anywhere, with no equipment. Pushups, baby. And I don't mean the "girl" ones on your knees. If you already do situps just add pushups to the routine.
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boo
Jan 31, 2007, 1:20 PM
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I came into climbing with average upper body strength at best. Likely below as it was swimming related. (ie, I could press out mantels like nobody's business.)
i concur with overlord. solid pullups of a reasonable number will buildup a better baseline strength. stepped lock-offs helped me even more. (do them assisted if they are too hard...a lot of us just don't have a baseline upper body strength.) not everyday, usually on non-climbing days. deadhangs with intermittent controlled leg lifts helped, too.
it is really important to match this up with climbing on steep terrain. another thing i did was to find an onsightable, but strenuous, overhanging boulder problem. up and down climb it. eventually have a route that you can do the same thing.
if nothing else, the deadhangs and pullups are great reminders when you are in the steeps that you CAN hang out long enough to clip that bolt, or in my case place that cam.
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sben
Jan 31, 2007, 2:03 PM
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I believe the only thing pushups will help you with is maybe dynos. Also could be good as part of your warmup, as they loosen up your pecs & triceps.
I'm pretty new to climbing myself, and I definitely fall under the "more strength than technique" category, but I still gotta say that pullups will get you there faster than anything. Bicep curls are a little less desirable because you don't want to rely solely on your biceps in climbing; you want to spread it out to your lats because they won't tire out as fast.
Even dedicated body builders will tell you that nothing trains your lats better than pullups.
I know some climbers recommend a pyramid scheme when doing pullups. For instance, if the maximum # of pullups you can do is 10, you would do sets of 1, then 2, then 3, etc. until 10, then 9, then 8, etc. This should build up endurance concomitantly with strength.
Of course, just do what you can for now, and work up to something more elaborate.
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lhwang
Jan 31, 2007, 2:38 PM
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I agree with Overlord... it's about technique not so much as arm strength. You mention that you've "picked up enough technique" but it sounds like you might need to work on techniques specific for overhangs.
I'll add to what Overlord's already said by saying that I think core strength is probably more important that arm strength...
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acacongua
Jan 31, 2007, 3:25 PM
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Although it's mostly about technique (and with that, you'll want stronger abs), but sometimes you've gotta power up. Do pull-ups/push-ups for that lock-off and pull strength. Do it after a good workout (cardio, climb session) because you'll be warmed up and capable of doing more.
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zenelky
Jan 31, 2007, 3:45 PM
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I also will vote on core strength and technique. You wouldn't think that it's really all in your abs, but it is. Have you ever tried to hang straight armed, lift your legs up to 90 degrees AND HOLD THEM THERE! It's hard, even if you think that you have strong abs.
Once you build up those core muscles it will be much easier to keep your feet under you and on the rock. I sucked at overhangs too, but then my partner forced me to start adding this excersice into my routine and it helped me out more than all the pull-ups and push-ups. Does it look like Beth Rodden has massive upper arm strength? Any bulging biceps on that girl? It's not all about how strong your arms are
Good luck
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klopik
Jan 31, 2007, 4:26 PM
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Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate it!
Well, as far as core strength goes, I actually have my fair share. I can do something like 50 upside-down situps (hanging with my head down) without too much effort.
As far as pull ups - I can do 0...
But it seems that most everyone agrees that its all about technique, not strengh...
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granite_grrl
Jan 31, 2007, 4:44 PM
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klopik wrote: Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate it! Well, as far as core strength goes, I actually have my fair share. I can do something like 50 upside-down situps (hanging with my head down) without too much effort. As far as pull ups - I can do 0... But it seems that most everyone agrees that its all about technique, not strengh...
Yeah, but it shouldn't hurt if you start working on strength on you days off from climbing.
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snoangel
Jan 31, 2007, 5:10 PM
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klopik wrote: Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate it! Well, as far as core strength goes, I actually have my fair share. I can do something like 50 upside-down situps (hanging with my head down) without too much effort. As far as pull ups - I can do 0... But it seems that most everyone agrees that its all about technique, not strengh...
While sit-ups are great, they are best at strengthening your outermost layer of abdominal muscles, which are used primarily for spinal flexion and give you the six-pack. You have 4 layers of abs and your inner-most layer, the transverse abdominus, is the key to a solid core and good balance. Try incorporating Pilates into your workout. A mat class will really help get your core stronger. The key is to have a good instructor. If Pilates is done incorrectly, you will still benefit, but you will miss out on the subtleties that allow the exercises to get deeper into your core.
And for the record, I can do 1 pullup. I rely on balance and core strength to get me through the hard stuff. 
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carabiner96
Jan 31, 2007, 7:27 PM
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snoangel wrote: klopik wrote: Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate it! Well, as far as core strength goes, I actually have my fair share. I can do something like 50 upside-down situps (hanging with my head down) without too much effort. As far as pull ups - I can do 0... But it seems that most everyone agrees that its all about technique, not strengh... While sit-ups are great, they are best at strengthening your outermost layer of abdominal muscles, which are used primarily for spinal flexion and give you the six-pack. You have 4 layers of abs and your inner-most layer, the transverse abdominus, is the key to a solid core and good balance. Try incorporating Pilates into your workout. A mat class will really help get your core stronger. The key is to have a good instructor. If Pilates is done incorrectly, you will still benefit, but you will miss out on the subtleties that allow the exercises to get deeper into your core. And for the record, I can do 1 pullup. I rely on balance and core strength to get me through the hard stuff.
I'm glad I'm not the only one!
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lena_chita
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Jan 31, 2007, 7:52 PM
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When I started climbing, I could not do any pull-ups. Zero. Could never do them in my life.
But weirdly enough, I could do roofs relatively easily. I do believe that it was because of the core strength -- thanks to Pilates, and dancing past.
Still, I was blaming my lack of arm strength for every situation where I fell off of anything overhanging. B/c while I could pull a roof easily, putting me against an overhang, no matter how juggy, meant that the overhang won, so it HAD to be arm strength, i thought...
I had lots of advice on how to train pull=ups, but I never trained pull-ups seriously. I have tried doing negatives (jump up to the pull-up position and then lower down slowly) as a way of working my way to pull-ups, but gave up after few weeks b/c it was too boring and I probably wasn't doing it regularly enough to make a difference.
Two years later, without doing any training other than climbing, I discovered that I could do 2-3 pull-ups.
I can now do 8 of them-on a bar, 5 on rock rings after 2 hrs of climbing-- checked last week, actually! I seems that they just increase somehow... A few months after I discovered that I could do 3 pull-ups, without doing a single pull-up during the months in between, I tried again and was able to do 5. Went on doing other things for 2 more months -- and got to 8 last week.
I have been training for the past 4 months -- based on Self-Coached Climber book. I think the increase in strength has something to do with that training, but it is almost a by-product of it, rather than the main focus...
I've said it before in other threads, and I'll say it again-- if you haven't read that book, you probably should. LOL, and for the record, I'm not in any way related to the authors of the book and don't get any money for promoting the book :0
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lhwang
Jan 31, 2007, 8:01 PM
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lena_chita wrote: I think the increase in strength has something to do with that training, but it is almost a by-product of it, rather than the main focus...
Yes! I forgot to say this.
Given the choice between spending time doing pull-ups or on climbing technique exercises, my choice would be clear...
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jakedatc
Jan 31, 2007, 8:21 PM
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Yes Lhwang , the only training i do is climbing.. but.. that doesnt mean i don't do things to promote improvment. For the longest time i sucked at slopers.. starting climbing on more and more slopers and got better.
If you think you suck at roofs then don't ignore it and go through life skipping every route with a overhang.. go to the gym or crag and get on overhanging stuff to work on it. understand that you will fall.. maybe alot but every move you make is helping and like Sno said you will realize overhanging stuff gets easier. Also you need to get on roofs to learn specific techniques. toe and heel hooks look simple enough but to get full value takes practice. knee bars and drop knees are another great way to get through roofs (and sometimes planned in by route setters)
i still don't believe all technique can get you through everything. if you are on a roof and you feet cut then your arms still need to be strong enough to hold you while your built up core gets your feet back on.
my last idea is that you should get on routes and boulder probems harder than your redpoint grade.. bouldering is the easiest way i find.. get on.. go till you fall. then either get back on where you dropped or work the beginning until you can extend it another move etc. It's also a great way to judge improvement. like hey.. that v4 used to kick my ass but now i can send it every trip out
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iamthewallress
Jan 31, 2007, 8:41 PM
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I've noticed w/ the overhangs at my gym a lot of fit young guys will have the strength if not the technique to do these w/ very little experience, but most women need to get stronger cores and, yes, arms to learn to crank past the lower grades.
I know for myself, when the trick is to maintain a certain amount of body tension in order to turn that hip in, drop the knee, etc....all of those special 'techniques' that after a certain distance or degree of overhang, I just can't keep hanging on. I haven't learned many new tricks, but getting stronger certainly has helped me improve lately.
I think a lot of times when guys talk about how it's technique not strength, they don't necessarily realize that most women can't do a pull up, and can't manage a standard push up (which is a combo of pushing strength and core strength to keep the middle from collapsing). You don't need to be able to do a million of these, but if don't have that much strength, you'll need Lynn Hill's technique to get very far on an overhang.
Then again, Ms. Hill was the one that said something to the effect of there not being reachy moves, only power moves.
Getting stronger will almost never hurt (unless you injure yourself or get huge in the process)...especially if you're climbing a lot and improving your technique as you go.
Grip, then core, then arms/shoulder/back in that order seem to have impacted my climbing the most.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Jan 31, 2007, 10:24 PM)
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acacongua
Jan 31, 2007, 10:16 PM
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snoangel wrote: core and good balance. Try incorporating Pilates into your workout. A mat class will really help get your core stronger.
Good point ... there is a difference between core strength and ab strength.
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jewels_vegas
Feb 5, 2007, 2:58 AM
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Make sure that you are doing dynamic moves on the overhangs. If you stop moving and start worrying about your arms, you will fall. On most of the easy problems you will not need any pull strength. Push with your legs and keep a straight arm. I would suggest working on your grip strength using a hang board. I suggest this because your weight will be on your upper body when you move your feet. As many have said before you do not need the pull strength to climb overhangs. It would also be useful to have someone watch you and give you pointers.
-Julie (can't do a pull up or more than 5 push-ups on my toes but I can boulder V2 on an overhang)
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iamthewallress
Feb 5, 2007, 3:36 AM
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jewels_vegas wrote: As many have said before you do not need the pull strength to climb overhangs... -Julie (can't do a pull up or more than 5 push-ups on my toes but I can boulder V2 on an overhang)
If you want to be able to do any V2 or be able to handle a nice variety of V4 or V6 on an overhang, getting the guns and guts together to do pull ups and push ups really is a good idea.
Although I agree totally that technique is necessary in addition to strength to climb well, I don't know a single person whose been climbing long enough to be at a bit of a technique plateau who doesn't climb better when they're stronger and lighter (within a healthy range).
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wmfork
Feb 5, 2007, 5:06 AM
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While being able to do pullups will certainly help, if you find yourself pulling a lot with your arms, you will get tired very fast.
Instead of pulling, try turning your body to gain extension for your other arm. This also requires upper body strength, but you may find that you can do that much quicker.
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iamthewallress
Feb 5, 2007, 7:55 AM
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...and when you can move your body in ways that maximize your extension and crank like a mofo, you'll outclimb many of the folks who tell you that it's primarily about one or the other skill!
I'd love to see one of the studly pros crank off V12 or some other-worldly number and then confess that they can't do a pull up...but they have wicked good body position. Or vice versa.
Also, fwiw, after a recent surge in steeper climbing (after climbing for about 7 years), I'm currrently having some shoulder issues that are probably 100% related to steep climbing where I'm haning on my frame dangling on my shoulder joint w/ straigth arms. Strengthening the surrounding muscles to limit the ability of my shoulder to slide out of its normal rotation is what my orthopod perscribed to counteract the tendonitis and impingement that I'm experiencing right now. I know it's not the type of "strengthening" that you necessarily had in mind w/ the original post, but it's someting worth thinging about if you're just starting to load your joints in new ways. The 'hanging your wieght on the shoulder joint' tendonitis is very, very common with climbers.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 5, 2007, 8:02 AM)
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clee03m
Feb 5, 2007, 2:58 PM
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I can't do a single pull up, and I do notice that my lack of strength does affect me in harder problems. My strength has improved some with lot of bouldering at the gym (side effect of not having belay partners of late...). I am getting better at bouldering and my arm/core strength is improving. My advise to you would be to do at lot of bouldering and overhaning problems as part of your routine. But that coming from someone who still can't do a single pull up. I read that if you can't do a pull up, you should lock off and then slowly lower yourself off a chair (kind of like a reverse pull up). My tongue and cheek motto in climbing because I suck at dynamic powerful moves...there is a static solution to every dynamic problem, and there is a technical solution to every strength problem.
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lena_chita
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Feb 5, 2007, 3:13 PM
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You know, after I wrote my first post, I started really thinking- -what aspect of my training made so much improvement in my pull-up ability in the past months?
And I think it is probably b/c I have been down-climbing everything, a lot of times linking 3 routes ( ~30ft ea) by downclimbing after every one of them, or doing ARCing by up/down climbing.
If you think about it, down-climbing is really series of lock-offs & slow lowering, in other words, that is that very same pull-up negative that people told me was supposed to build up your strength for pull-up. It works, I guess... Except I think I'm getting more benefits out of it than just the pull-up strength.
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acacongua
Feb 5, 2007, 6:17 PM
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I like to down lead quite a bit and think that does more for your footwork than your arm strength. Not to mention your lead head.
My friend who is getting her PhD in physiology and has a climber bf recommends pull-ups, but having something preventing you from actually making the pull-up (is that isometrics?). Have someone hold your feet or nail a band across the door to put your toes under. Studies have proven (according to my friend) that this will build more power than actually completing a pull up. I'll look around the web for this info.
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