|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 14, 2007, 8:49 PM
Post #26 of 60
(2935 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
gblauer wrote: cracklover wrote: Here's how it helps you: you learn specific techniques to climb in control. You learn how to place gear quickly and efficiently. You learn to spot placements where you wouldn't have seen them. You learn how to keep your rope in a straight line. You learn how to recognize good rock and bad rock. You learn how to follow the rock - the path of least resistance. You learn to recognize rests. You learn to push it, and slowly, cautiously, you make decisions about when to run it out and when not to, and you eventually, once you've got your skills dialed, and your confidence is good, start pushing the grades where the gear is good, and you start falling, and gaining confidence in falling. GO...I agree with all that you say, except that if you have a terrible fear of falling, you will never get to the place where you are climbing in control. You will always be climbing to AVOID falling. For some people, falling is a terribly scary prospect. It severely limits their ability to climb. Learning about falling can be a means to achieving the kind of control that you are describing. Every climber must understand the fall consequences (sport or trad) when deciding whether to tackle a route. How will you know the consequences if you don't know a thing about falling. Falling is an aspect of climbing, why ignore it? Why not train and learn as much about falling so that you can let irrational fears go and focus on the control that you speak of?
Because there is a time and a place for falling, and, imo, the time is not on early trad leads. All of what I talked about you can learn without ever falling. I had a British partner for several years who practically never fell when trad climbing, and he got stronger and stronger every year (he's in his late 40s - so that's impressive!) Sport is a whole different animal, and if you want to learn to fall safely, that's the place to do it.
In reply to: I suspect that you are a very strong climber, with an "uber" lead head and that you are having difficulty relating to the mortals among the crowd.
Nope. I have relatively little fear of falling in safe situations, particularly on bolts - perhaps that's what you mean by having an "uber" head? But really, I'm a weekend warrior like most folks here. I'm only just breaking into leading trad 11s, and still solidifying the .9s and 10s. I struggle with my lead head, but it has gotten better and better with time (although winter and gym climbing still set me back every year).
What I do have trouble relating to is those who think that falling is an important part of learning to trad climb. I think it *can* be important at the higher end, and I think that an irrational fear of falling can be overcome with sport climbing, and a quicker trust/knowledge of trad gear can be arrived at through aid climbing. But training yourself to be okay about falling on trad gear as a beginner, whether Arno says it's good or not, is bullshit, and will get you dead.
In reply to: I happen to be a 50 year old, mother of three with a mere five years of climbing experience. I work damn hard at every aspect of the sport. I regularly train in a gym during winter (body movement drills, body awareness drills, aerobic, anaerobic and yes, falling). All of this training has helped me push my lead on sport and slowly increase my confidence and competence on trad. I seek the control that you speak of, but, have yet to reach that nirvana on trad. I was heading to EPC at the end of February and I was certain that I would have climbed my hardest ever due to my training regimen. Alas, that is not to be, at least not until I heal.
And I wish you a speedy and complete healing. The point of my post is that I wish you to take a reasonably safe path to becoming the best trad leader you can be.
See Melissa's post for more on that.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Feb 15, 2007, 2:35 AM
Post #27 of 60
(2889 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
cracklover wrote: training yourself to be okay about falling on trad gear as a beginner, whether Arno says it's good or not, is bullshit, and will get you dead.
I'm a bit late to the discussion but I just finished reading the whole thread.
The wording maybe a little strong but I completely agree with most of what you have said, including the comment above. The idea that falling on gear and being comfortable with doing so, is a good way to improve anything other than your chances of getting hurt is (in my opinion) wrong. The system we use to protect or climbs is highly evolved and better than it has ever been but it is just a back up for the primary system (a climbers skill and experience). Staying safe involves above all else experience, and I know it often comes from error but it also comes from exposure and time invested.
The ability to asses fall dangers is an important part of climbing smart but it shouldn't come at the price of complacency. A safe lead starts with a clean accent with no falls, once you take a fall every variable in the system is brought into play and we shouldn't think there arent serious risks in allowing that to happen. (Back to the original direction of the discussion) If you climb long or hard enough you will fall and possibly often but I dont think that the best way to get over the effects that a fear of falling imposes on a person is to convince ones self that falling is safe, lying to your self doesnt help anything. I think the key to a good lead head is the ability to accept reality. Look at climbing as a mortgage and falling as the monthly payments. If you have chosen to buy a house how can you peer into the mailbox every day paralyzed by the fear that your bill may have arrived. I say learn to use your gear correctly, climb like your soloing above an irreversible move (that doesnt mean "the leader must never fall", it means climbing like falling isnt an option but neither is not sending so once your on climb like you god damn mean it) and acknowledge that when you fall its because you've accepted the consequences (good or bad) before hand and not because you have convinced your self its not dangerous to do so. Once you have come to terms with the fact that you will fall and falling is dangerous you will be able to climb with a clear head.
Thats what has worked the best for me anyway but I've never been in the position of needing to get my lead head back. I've only ever been focused on evolving and fine tuning the mental side of gear so I don't know that my method has universal applications but sugar coating things just seems like a recipe for disaster.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 15, 2007, 2:44 AM
Post #28 of 60
(2881 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
You must be able to determine where it's safe to fall and where it's not safe.
You also must be able to evaluate your ability and sum up your likelyhood of falling on such terrain.
Then you need to have a benefits:risk analysis and decide on your action
This is true in every type of climbing not just trad. It's probably most prevalent in aid and ice. Trad is as safe as the route YOU CHOSE to climb (with exception of course).
|
|
|
|
|
mr8615
Feb 15, 2007, 3:26 AM
Post #29 of 60
(2866 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032
|
I've always felt safer on gear than bolts. With gear, I'm in control, I choose the route (as angry said), I also choose how many (or few) peices to place and in turn, how safe a fall would be. I was taught long ago not to ever place a 'head' peice and to always climb as though my gear will hold a fall. I've taken far more falls on bolts than gear but I think that's a result of careful route selection rather than fear of falling.
That said, I rarely consider a route not rated R or X (or in North Carolina) to have any 'no fall' sections whatsoever. You are free to put yourself into a no fall situation, but that's a choice of gear placements, not a situation where the ability to calmly climb into a no fall, self inflicted 'predicament' is required.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 15, 2007, 3:54 AM
Post #30 of 60
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Interesting discussion, some good points all around.
I think there are a couple of fairily self-evident truths at work here:
1. The strategy of being willing and often actually taking falls, and the subsequent working of a route, is like nitro as far as improvement goes. The opposite, the leader must not fall, holds one back in a sense, much more reluctant to fiddle with the fine edge of losing control or exceeding one's limits.
2. This strategy comes with attendant risk. That risk can be often be managed *safely enough* for a given situaiton. Hell sport climbing is designed around managing the situation. But clearly there is a scale of risk at work and even relatively low risk situaitons can and have produced death.
And we all pretty much know this.
So the only real dynamic at work here is personal risk tolerance and risk/benefit analysis.
I've broke bones taking falls, one of them on easy terrain I'd climbed 10 times before. I've incurred other bone crunching injuries in car crashes and football.
I've also sprained both ankles numerous times willingly taking bouldering falls, and of course hiking and stupid assed shit like raquetball.
Anyway, at a certain point in a person's life, falling down starts to become a serious fucking issue. I used to jump off the roof of my dad's low slung barn - same move would land me in the horse pistol right now.
Frankly, right now I can't bear the thought of tearing out ligaments and bone fragments again. I don't want to be in intensive care ever again with spinal surgeons looking at me and wondering out loud why I wasn't dead. I don't want to go through another summer with crutches under my arms and a frigging cervical collar on my neck. I don't want to become used to pain killers again. I don't want to do any of that shit.
So at least right now I climb with a 'must not fall' attitude, pretty much all the time. I don't boulder anymore - ever. Bouldering used to account for 50% of my climbing time. It also accounted for more than 50% of my falling time haha.
Even a swinging fall up under an overhang could pop my bad ankle. I really shouldn't be climbing at all.
But oddly enough, my 'head' wasn't affected. Frankly the risks of climbing have always scaired me, sometimes anxiety being the greater beast. But I've learned that I can dig much deeper than I ever thought possible when I started this gig out. And on terrain where I'm comfortable and in control I find I can run it out as ever without a rat gnawing through the back of my skull.
I have to actually *remind myself*, frequently in fact, that I MUST NOT FALL right now. It's hard. It holds me back. And its necessary.
We each have to, and do, go through a similar risk analysis, whether its conscious or not, whether we do it *correctly* or not.
Each time we take a fall we are risking our lives. That is a simple fact. So as each of us progresses through the course of a climbing career, just remember, this analysis accompanies every climb you'll ever do and if you think one answer fits all you will find out in due course just how wrong you are.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
matttt
Feb 15, 2007, 4:27 AM
Post #31 of 60
(2825 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 84
|
mr8615-
you truly feel safer on gear than on a bolt? not me, but i see the logic in that you can sew-up a crack and be safe. however, for me placing gear is when i feel the most insecure and is usually when i fall. my last two falls on gear where both while while f@ckin' around with tricky placements. i personally believe that the leader must not fall, or at least make a damn valiant effort not to.
|
|
|
|
|
saxfiend
Feb 15, 2007, 4:36 AM
Post #32 of 60
(2818 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 1208
|
gblauer wrote: BTW, I was the poster that advised the climber to take the Arno class and learn more about falling.
JL
|
|
|
|
|
mr8615
Feb 15, 2007, 4:59 AM
Post #33 of 60
(2805 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032
|
matttt wrote: mr8615- you truly feel safer on gear than on a bolt? not me, but i see the logic in that you can sew-up a crack and be safe. however, for me placing gear is when i feel the most insecure and is usually when i fall. my last two falls on gear where both while while f@ckin' around with tricky placements. i personally believe that the leader must not fall, or at least make a damn valiant effort not to.
I'm not saying that sewing up a crack makes me feel safer, it's not the spacing of the pro that makes me feel safer, it's the CHOICE. Looking at an unbolted line, choosing whether or not to get on it, choosing when to place, when to run out, etc all contribute to an overall 'safer' feeling, for me. Have you ever thought that your last two falls on gear resulted from poor choice? Would you still have fallen had you placed (or not placed) your gear differently? You chose to stop and mess with tricky placements, had you not stopped would you still have fallen?
I'll second sax's advice above...
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 15, 2007, 5:55 AM
Post #34 of 60
(2786 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
yea.. but on a bolted sport route you are guaranteed to have that next bolt.. no wondering hmm is this going to be my last piece for a while.. or should i put a tri cam and save my C4 when the stance is sketchy. exception being places like indian creek that it's cam plugging all the way up you can be almost as aggressive.. and i think alot of people are there
i dont fall willingly but i go much much harder on sport routes and am still at warm up level on gear (only a few dozen trad leads vs a few hundred sport leads makes a difference too)
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Feb 15, 2007, 7:29 AM
Post #35 of 60
(2767 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
notapplicable wrote: cracklover wrote: training yourself to be okay about falling on trad gear as a beginner, whether Arno says it's good or not, is bullshit, and will get you dead. ... The idea that falling on gear and being comfortable with doing so, is a good way to improve anything other than your chances of getting hurt is (in my opinion) wrong. ... A safe lead starts with a clean accent with no falls, once you take a fall every variable in the system is brought into play and we shouldn't think there arent serious risks in allowing that to happen. ... but I dont think that the best way to get over the effects that a fear of falling imposes on a person is to convince ones self that falling is safe, lying to your self doesnt help anything. ... I say learn to use your gear correctly, climb like your soloing above an irreversible move (that doesnt mean "the leader must never fall", it means climbing like falling isnt an option but neither is not sending so once your on climb like you god damn mean it) ... Once you have come to terms with the fact that you will fall and falling is dangerous you will be able to climb with a clear head. ... but sugar coating things just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Hmmm, I don't think you guys are fairly characterizing what Arno(?) are suggesting. I don't believe he or anyone else is suggesting repetitive falling is meant to drone into you that 'falling is safe'. They are attempting, under controlled circumstances, to get folks physically, mentally, and emotionally familiar with the idea and experience of falling.
We don't have uniform responses to the prospect of falling or anything else and that some people might have a stronger visceral reaction to get over is completely understandable and, while I'm not familiar with this WW business, the principle and practice is sound in my experience teaching.
Beyond 'practice falls' and WW, I believe I'm hearing a lot of interesting biases in this conversation. First, I can tell there is a terrible bais that bolts are somehow inherently 'safer' than gear or - god forbid - pitons. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Having checked and replaced tons of anchors and fixed pins I'd go so far as to say I'd rather dive on a fix pin than a bolt any time given the odds are good I can tell the true state of the pin way better than deducing what the condition of the bolt is back in the rock. A far, far greater percentage of the bolts I replaced were bad compared to the pins - and, many of the newer, bright, and shiny bolts from the '90s were in the worst shape of the lot. And there isn't even a choice between gear I place and an anonymous bolt - I'll take my gear every time as well.
To be clear, confidence in trad climbing requires competent skills with gear and the harder or more sketched trad gets the better those skills need to become. If you feel more comfortable falling sport climbing than on what otherwise could be considered good pro trad climbing on a comparable route then either your skills are not up to par or your perceptions are out of whack with reality. But make no mistake, getting competent with pro is mandatory in trad climbing or you'll never 'escape' yourself to move on to just focusing on the climbing.
All that noise said, let me state that falling is not dangerous in and of itself. I'll say it again, nothing about falling, in and of itself is dangerous. WHAT YOU SAY ??? I say only context and circumstances make falling dangerous, period.
Nothing about falling makes it any different than any other aspect of climbing relative to the need to be educated, skilled, practiced, and possess the ability to judge applicability, appropriateness, and risk. Hell, as a leader being belayed can be far more dangerous than falling - pick an incompetent belayer and you could be injured or killed simply being lowered from a climb after a fall they somehow manage to catch. Falling off a steeply overhanging wall or a roof likely carries none of the risks associated with falling on near-near vertical wall composed of blocks, broken terrain, and sharp textures.
Again, context and circumstance are everything. Bad pro - bolt, pin, or gear - probably not a wise move. New, well-installed 1/2"X3.75" SS fatties or a bomb stopper or two on an overhanging wall 80ft up with a good belayer and a decent rope - hey, call me Divin' Dapper Dan.
And learning when falling is acceptable is also no different than learning any other aspect of climbing - as you gain mileage and advance from easier to more difficult terrain you need to start becoming more and more aware of your surrondings (context) so you are better informed to make decisions every step along the way (circumstance). If you seldom or never fall, then you're either progressing at a snail's pace, not climbing near your limit, or never challenging yourself. That's ok as a choice, though it's not one I'd make. But that's not at all to say new trad leaders should be simply hurling themselves off easy ground as Cracklover says - when not explicitly doing carefully orchestrated 'practice falls' - falling should be infrequent in the beginning and only happen as you gain the experience to understand when it becomes an acceptable possibility.
That is the dance - looking ahead both broadly and narrowly, near and far, constantly revising the plan - go or no go? Advance or retreat? High risk or low? Where is the next placement? Where is the next rest? Are they at the same place? Is the overall rope system staying copasetic (slinging)? Is my belayer awake or does she have her hand down my partner's pants? It's a lot to take in, filter, and process - let alone make decisions based on it all and do it all while in between rests on hard ground - but do it you must. If you didn't have to do it all they'd call it sport climbing.
So as far as I'm concerned, falling is absolutely no different than any other aspect of trad climbing - make bad choices around it and you'll end up hurt or dead, but the same goes for choosing partners, venues, gear, and routes (lovers, wives, and husbands) - well, you get the idea - it's not all that different than sizing up the prospects for unsafe sex on a first date - be careful out there...
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 15, 2007, 4:41 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Feb 15, 2007, 1:42 PM
Post #36 of 60
(2720 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
I got Arno's book for by brother in hopes that it would help him gain confidence in himself on the sharp end, it didnt. So I have read portions of his book but I wasnt realy responding to his suggestions or methods I was responding mostly to the people who have been supporting the idea that the best way to clear your head up is convince yourself that falling is safe. I know you disagree but when you fall there are always more variables than you can control and once you set the science experiment in motion there is always a chance your not going to get the results you were anticipateing. So I personaly dont think that "knowing" that falling is safe is the best way to gain focus and a clear head because its an incorrect assumption. I think the best way to gain confidence and a clear lead head is to acknowledge that falling is dangerous (although you do have a lot of control over just how dangerous) and you have conciously and willfully chosen to fall. You cannot rationaly fear what you have chosen to do because you decided to proceed after understanding the consiqunces of your choice. Now if you think that you need to take practice falls to gather a complete understanding of the risks of falling I think thats perfectly fine. All I know is the times that I have gotten hurt in this sport were when I felt safe and didnt think I was at risk. I believe that if you feel that way about falling it increases the chances you will be hurt. All that being said the WW appears to be a proven method for controling ones fear and if it works, it works.
|
|
|
|
|
sterlingjim
Feb 15, 2007, 2:12 PM
Post #37 of 60
(2708 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2006
Posts: 251
|
Here's the obvious question about all this: cracklover, what were you doing in the ladies room?
|
|
|
|
|
uasunflower
Feb 15, 2007, 4:36 PM
Post #39 of 60
(2638 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 1563
|
don't worry gabe, we love you anyway
2 cents to the discussion - i agree mock leading is pointless to become an autonomous and safe trad leader, it's kind of like paying a guide to take you up a big mountain (very current in europe) when the only thing you've done is some (maybe even hard) gym/sport climbing. You get what you pay for - a top rope and Disney-land-like experience of the thrill.
I don't think you have to be an uber-strong climber to agree with this precept, but most experience shows that people remaining with the sport and enjoying it most are the ones that learned by themselves, with their own mistakes, on the sharp end. You will learn how to lead while leading - you can write books about it, discuss and fight, watch and wonder, the only warrior's way takes up the sharp end.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 15, 2007, 5:36 PM
Post #40 of 60
(2608 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
healyje wrote: If you seldom or never fall, then you're either progressing at a snail's pace, not climbing near your limit, or never challenging yourself.
I disagree w/ this b/c my hardest TR's are of the same grades as my hardest leads. I'm willing to fall on the TR's and push myself to the point of risking falling on well protected leads, but I get in gear or back off if I think that falling is really about to happen when I'm on the sharp end.
There are a lot of ways to push yourself without maxing out the numbers. Learning to push the edge where you can climb absolutely impeccably as though your life depends on it (like, it situations where your life does depend on it) is its own game.
The most solid soloist/R/X climber that I know (and someone who climbs at the level of doing no-falls free wall climbs) once told me when I asked why he didn't take falls more often that his life depends on him not falling so often that operating at the edge of falling is not a sensation with which he'd like to become comfortable.
I'm not saying that most people have an interest in pushing their limits on R/X or ropeless climbing. I'm just saying that climbing the hardest number ever isn't the only way to climb hard.
Also, when I see someone who rarely falls onsighting, oh, say 3 short 5.12 pitches linked together as one on El Cap trailing a haul line, I have a hard time believing that one will be severely limited in their ability to progress if they don't get intimate with whipping. In fact learning to not whip when you're at your limit just might make you send harder too.
The biggest factor that I've been able to determine in the afformentioned partner's success is heaps and heaps of hard work progressing through the grades over many (nearing 20 now) years, starting in the single digits like everyone else, never shunning a single technique, milking every ounce of daylight on every available climbing day, doing so nearly full time for a while...No short cuts in other words.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 15, 2007, 5:47 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jsh
Feb 15, 2007, 5:44 PM
Post #41 of 60
(2598 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 118
|
Gabe, and Melissa, I couldn't agree with you more.
One thing I think has been glossed-over here: what it means to be a beginner leader. I think most of us who've been climbing for a looong time, can only recognize in hindsight the -years- it took us to evolve from beginner status. Our egos move on far before our skillsets do. Like Melissa said - only now can she look at the spot where she fell, and recognize that it wasn't safe. But at the time, she thought it was a safe, clean fall.
Remember all of Dawn's early, big falls?
Another thing: I think someone else said this elsewhere, but there's a crucial difference between trusting gear and systems as a likely-to-succeed backup, and relying on them regularly to pitch off every route. This is a separate issue from developing a lead head. That's what underlies the difference between trad and sport mentalities, imho.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 15, 2007, 5:58 PM
Post #42 of 60
(2583 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
iamthewallress wrote: ...No short cuts in other words.
Excellent points. But there ARE demonstrated shorter cuts to rapid improvement; dogging and working routes for example I think is proven. Its just the shortcuts include associated risks and in the trad environment those risks are much more difficult to manage 'safe enough.'
I think only the best and most dedicated can take the 'must not fall' mentality to 12s and beyond. You said it well, the years of dedication, etc required to do this.
Then throw in the pressure of some gal sending 12s in her first year by using the nitro jump start of working routes. It makes sticking to the must not fall mentality all the harder.
Its all part of the Great Game?
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 15, 2007, 6:04 PM
Post #43 of 60
(2578 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
jsh wrote: Remember all of Dawn's early, big falls?
I don't b/c when I got into 'trad' and started looking for info, Dawn had been at it for maybe 2 years (I'm not exactly sure) and was no longer writing about taking falls at that point. IIRC, she was a bit averse to taking them. In any case, I began reading rec.climbing via her tradgirl digests, and I thought that she was really a font of wisdom and an experienced authority on all things trad.
Having climbed with Dawn and read her posts over the years, I think that she's a really smart cookie who's used pretty good judgement throughout her climbing career and had a good perspec[tive on a lot of things even as a relative beginner. For that I am lucky b/c as you said, it took years to realize that having experience generally takes even more years.
One thing that I recall from rec.climbing that has actually been useful to me, but I've never been able to find again was this time that someone's troll pseudonym (I think it belonged to Nate), layed into me for trying to short cut my way to my goals instead of paying my dues getting solid with my skills. At the time I thought, "What do you mean?! I climb every minute that I can!" True, but I hadn't been climbing every minute that I could long enough to have earned the climbs that I was feeling someone entitled to be able to go do given my effort. My path to get to some of them might be a 15 year path instead of a 5 year path, and it might end short of some of them as well. The need for most people to take the long path towards a broad range of skill (vs. honing your wicked power on a focused set of skills) is probably a major reason why many if not most of the folks doing stuff like freeing El Cap are over 30.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 15, 2007, 6:18 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 15, 2007, 6:07 PM
Post #44 of 60
(2575 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
dingus wrote: Then throw in the pressure of some gal sending 12s in her first year by using the nitro jump start of working routes. It makes sticking to the must not fall mentality all the harder.
Makes me think of the old saying about traddies: there's bold, and there's old climbers, but there's no old bold climbers.
But really, unless you have a strong aversion to sport climbing, I think the solution is simple if you want to take shortcuts: dog and work the sport routes; send hard on the trad ones.
Edited to say: I'm basically speaking to beginner trad leaders in the above. I think folks with more experience under their belts can, as Dingus says, make good judgements as to the level of risk that feels right, with enough experience to back up those choices.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 15, 2007, 6:10 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 15, 2007, 6:13 PM
Post #45 of 60
(2568 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
dingus wrote: Then throw in the pressure of some gal sending 12s in her first year by using the nitro jump start of working routes. It makes sticking to the must not fall mentality all the harder.
I wanna make sure that it's clear that I'm not saying that taking falls can't have dividends too. Or, for that matter, if you're whipping daily onto #2 brassies after a run out b/c you dig the adrenaline rush that you should go right ahead (as long as you know and accept that you'll probably eventually get real busted up!)
I'm just responding to a lot of seemingly conventional wisdom that you have to fall regularly to climb hard, by saying that I've witnessed this to be false in several instances.
FWIW, I 'project' stuff on TR...or by taking tension on lead and trying to do it w/o tension later. Both end up putting me 'on my belay system' and are not without risk as well. I also turn down the lead on a lot of stuff with seriously unimpressive numbers b/c I don't feel solid enough to risk it.
I really appreciated your post up thread. One of my all time favorite bits of climbing wisdom was Theresa Ho's "Dying seems to me to be a bigger failing than not progressing as fast as humanly possible." But then again, even to that, I guess there is someone who'd rather die. I just don't want it to be someone I care about.
Now, given Theresa's present condition, we certainly have a reminder that really bad shit can happen in situations that aren't really that risky when you're just looking at the odds. On the other hand, getting in touch with my inner daredevil in situations that I know have more risk than is necessary for me to enjoy and advance in the activity just doesn't do for me what it used to before I had the opportunity to spend so much time catching up on TV shows and chat groups whilst nursing injuries. To each her own though.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 16, 2007, 1:29 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
flyinglow
Feb 15, 2007, 7:25 PM
Post #46 of 60
(2520 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 77
|
notapplicable wrote: All I know is the times that I have gotten hurt in this sport were when I felt safe and didnt think I was at risk. I believe that if you feel that way about falling it increases the chances you will be hurt.
If you had engaged in well thought out falling practice, you would have known that those places were dangerous, and would have been equipped to handle the situation differently.
I think people should read and comprehend the material before criticising it.
Nowhere have i read that the warriors way involves any kind of nonchalance or "knowing falling is safe".
Arno repeatedly warns against the dangers of falling without a good understanding of the consequences.
The whole point of falling practice as outlined in the warriors way is to learn to understand the consequences of falling starting with very short falls and working up to longer falls in as safe a way as possible. Knowing what will happen when you fall is a necessary part of predicting the consequences of a fall. if you have no experience with falling you can't possibly predict what will happen.
Maybe you should actually read the book, instead of just skimming a few pages without understanding the material. nobody yet has said that taking long dangerous falls is the way to improve at climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 15, 2007, 7:51 PM
Post #47 of 60
(2501 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
I missed this point earlier:
j_ung wrote: It seems like the poster is trying to get over irrational fear, not fear of actual consequences.
Actually, the fear she feels is perfectly rational. She fell from a place where a fall wasn't safe, at 25' with one piece of gear below her. That's not a safe fall, and she didn't mean to take it. The consequences of falling where it's not safe to do so can be severe. Until she has proven to her inner demons that she can avoid falling in places where a fall is unsafe, her demons will rightly torment her. And to do that, she just needs time on the sharp end, without falling.
Or maybe some easy soloing. Kidding! (mostly)
GO
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 15, 2007, 8:08 PM
Post #48 of 60
(2486 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
I'm not sure I made my point well in my last post.
I don't want to denigrate the level of fear she feels. While I do think it's rational, I also think it is limiting her in a way that she can, and hopefully will, get beyond.
Maybe I can make my point better with an analogy:
Let's say you have an "irrational" fear of policemen, because one time you threw a rock at a cop and he came over and threw you down, cuffed you, roughed you up a bit, humiliated you in front of your friends, and then sent you on your way.
Only now you're afraid to go out on the streets for fear of seeing another policeman (or even the same one).
So one of your friends suggests you get beyond your fear by taking a cardboard cutout of a policeman and throwing rocks at it. That way you'll see that it's safe to throw rocks at the police. Sure, it may work, but it's the wrong solution.
A better therapy might be to force yourself to interact with police in a safe setting.
Hope that makes some sense.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 15, 2007, 8:10 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
matttt
Feb 15, 2007, 8:10 PM
Post #49 of 60
(2483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 84
|
mr8615 wrote: I'm not saying that sewing up a crack makes me feel safer, it's not the spacing of the pro that makes me feel safer, it's the CHOICE. Looking at an unbolted line, choosing whether or not to get on it, choosing when to place, when to run out, etc all contribute to an overall 'safer' feeling, for me. Have you ever thought that your last two falls on gear resulted from poor choice? Would you still have fallen had you placed (or not placed) your gear differently? You chose to stop and mess with tricky placements, had you not stopped would you still have fallen?
you take the placements that are available, and there is no way to examine individual placement options from the deck on a big multi-pitch climb, sans telescope. the point i was trying to make is that you can fall whenever and for me it is usually when i least expect it.
i know that i feel a hell of a lot safer with a crack full of gear as opposed to running it out. just becasue you feel safe does not mean you are safe.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 15, 2007, 8:14 PM
Post #50 of 60
(2476 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
iamthewallress wrote: I'm just responding to a lot of seemingly conventional wisdom that you have to fall regularly to climb hard, by saying that I've witnessed this to be false in several instances.
Yup you made those points very well. Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
