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suzie_cuzie
Apr 17, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I was searching through the posts in this forum on helmets, trying to get myself informed so I buy the helmet best for protecting my head.
The thing that's been bugging me is that the hard helmets are great for protecting against falling rock, but not so great at absorbing impact and preventing head trauma; the reverse is true of the foam helmets.
Then I saw a post where a fellow mentioned something called a Grivel Cap, which is a foam helmet with a hard shell insert that protects against penetrating rocks. This is the kind of thing I want.
Does anybody know of any other helmets that have both?
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elnero
Apr 17, 2007, 5:29 AM
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If I understand right, the petzl elios is similar, hard shell, foam inside. Also i think the BD half dome has foam in under the hard shell, and i think Camp makes one, and Mammut apparently just came out with a helmet similar to the elios and such.
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hosh
Apr 17, 2007, 5:51 AM
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The problem that I've had with hard shell helmets is that the hard shell cracks. I had the Half Dome by BD and it's got a small crack in it from being attached to my bag and thrown into a helicopter. Not much force, just the wrong force in the wrong place. Now the structural integrity of my helmet is compromised and I need to get a new lid. Fortunately, the wife approves of me protecting my head, so I'll be ordering a new Tracer. I like the feel of those. Hope that helped at least a little...
hosh.
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kevinheiss
Apr 17, 2007, 11:08 AM
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Camp have good helmets for a cheap price.
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ja1484
Apr 17, 2007, 11:36 AM
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elnero wrote: If I understand right, the petzl elios is similar, hard shell, foam inside. Also i think the BD half dome has foam in under the hard shell, and i think Camp makes one, and Mammut apparently just came out with a helmet similar to the elios and such.
I've been using a Petzl Elios for about the past year, and I can confirm that it's a hard shell over foam. My only complaint is that it has slightly less coverage than I'd like for the back of the head, but it's still good enough.
It looks like the Grivel Salamander (http://www.rei.com/product/736532) might also be your ticket to ride, and, as a bonus, it appears to have excellent rear and side coverage, something many climbing helmets (the Elios included) miss.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Apr 17, 2007, 11:48 AM)
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elnero
Apr 17, 2007, 2:25 PM
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hosh wrote: The problem that I've had with hard shell helmets is that the hard shell cracks. I had the Half Dome by BD and it's got a small crack in it from being attached to my bag and thrown into a helicopter. Not much force, just the wrong force in the wrong place. Now the structural integrity of my helmet is compromised and I need to get a new lid. Fortunately, the wife approves of me protecting my head, so I'll be ordering a new Tracer. I like the feel of those. Hope that helped at least a little... hosh.
In my experience, I've only ever seen this happen to the BD Half Dome. I have two friends who own the Half Dome, both have either a crack or stress marks on it. (by stress marks I mean that whiteish color plastic gets after being bent back and forth) Everyone I know with the elios, or the edelrids and ecrin rocs, are totally fine. the plastic on the half dome just seems a little thin and flimsy.
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akicebum
Apr 17, 2007, 3:05 PM
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Foam helmets are one shot wonders. I killed an old school Meteror when a rock blasted me. Knocked me out, I had a good concusion, but the helmet didn't blow apart even though it had a 4 inch gash in it.
Go Hardshell, takes lots of hits. I like the Elios, but it is all personal preference.
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suzie_cuzie
Apr 17, 2007, 3:17 PM
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ja1484 wrote: elnero wrote: If I understand right, the petzl elios is similar, hard shell, foam inside. Also i think the BD half dome has foam in under the hard shell, and i think Camp makes one, and Mammut apparently just came out with a helmet similar to the elios and such. I've been using a Petzl Elios for about the past year, and I can confirm that it's a hard shell over foam. My only complaint is that it has slightly less coverage than I'd like for the back of the head, but it's still good enough. It looks like the Grivel Salamander ( http://www.rei.com/product/736532) might also be your ticket to ride, and, as a bonus, it appears to have excellent rear and side coverage, something many climbing helmets (the Elios included) miss.
For ones that have the hard shell over foam, do you still need to replace it if it takes one hit, as you do with the all foam ones?
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8flood8
Apr 17, 2007, 4:02 PM
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do a forum search for the picture of that kid's mom who took a fall on of those foam helmets.
the whole top of her scalp along with part of the back of it got
RIPPED OFF OF HER SKULL.
get an ecrin roc and don't land on your head.
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kimgraves
Apr 17, 2007, 7:18 PM
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My understanding is that foam is inadequate for protection from falling ice/rock/gear etc. It's not that it's a one shot deal. It's a NO shot deal. If there is any chance of stuff falling out of the sky on your head you need a hard shell. While a hard shell won't protect you as much as a foam shell if you take a penji into a corner it's better than nothing. While a foam lid under a hail of pebbles is essentially like wearing nothing - it's a crap shoot. It might work, it might not. What are foam lids good for then - bouldering maybe? 
Best, Kim
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elnero
Apr 17, 2007, 8:01 PM
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kimgraves wrote: My understanding is that foam is inadequate for protection from falling ice/rock/gear etc. It's not that it's a one shot deal. It's a NO shot deal. If there is any chance of stuff falling out of the sky on your head you need a hard shell. While a hard shell won't protect you as much as a foam shell if you take a penji into a corner it's better than nothing. While a foam lid under a hail of pebbles is essentially like wearing nothing - it's a crap shoot. It might work, it might not. What are foam lids good for then - bouldering maybe? Best, Kim
I hadn't heard anything about it being that bad. I was under the assumption that a foam helmet, like the tracer or meteor was a one shot if it was a big one. I've been biking for a while and they say to replace the helmet after a crash, but unless its a serious crash, or your head really smacks hard, the foam is pretty stout. If it looks like there is damage to the foam, replace it.
However, petzl markets theirs as an alpine/mountaineering helmet, which sounds sketchy. what happens if on day 1 of your week long mountaineering trip you get smacked by a piece of ice?...
All in all, I'd go with a hybrid shell/foam thing, or a hard shell. I guess the foam would be alright for sport, not as much stuff coming down on you I'd think. But.. twice as much $$ as a elios, for less durability.
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alpinismo_flujo
Apr 17, 2007, 8:15 PM
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what happens if on day 1 of your week long mountaineering trip you get smacked by a piece of ice?...
You suck it up and continue with your weakend helmet 
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scuclimber
Apr 17, 2007, 8:54 PM
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So guys, is everybody going to continue to make conjectures and suppositions without any sources to back them up, or is somebody going to chime in with some data? Just curious.  I mean, what goes into the CE- and UIAA-certifications that BD says their Tracer helmet has undergone? I would assume that foam helmets undergo the same testing as hardshell helmets... i.e. penetration resistance, blunt force, etc. And I dunno about you, but when I get clocked in the head with a big rock, I'm going to retire my (older, completely hardshell-style) BD Halfdome, whether it looks damaged or not, just as I would retire a BD Tracer or Petzl Meteor. Just my two cents.
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alpinismo_flujo
Apr 17, 2007, 9:15 PM
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You are right - retire any helmet that has been subjected to a significant impact.
My understanding - not scientific fu-fu data based - is foam helmets are better when it comes to side impacts and traditional webbing suspension helmets are better for top impacts. That is why some manufactures are trying (have) to develop(ed) hybrids.
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scuclimber
Apr 17, 2007, 10:49 PM
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alpinismo_flujo wrote: You are right - retire any helmet that has been subjected to a significant impact. My understanding - not scientific fu-fu data based - is foam helmets are better when it comes to side impacts and traditional webbing suspension helmets are better for top impacts. That is why some manufactures are trying (have) to develop(ed) hybrids.
Fortunately, "scientific fu-fu data" is what makes the world go 'round.
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8flood8
Apr 17, 2007, 11:03 PM
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that is the way to do it.
i took a brain sized rock to the temporal lobe of my helmet in mexico... went home and ordered a new helmet..
i'll never forget the smell of gunpowder and the pinging ring of that rock bouncing off my ecrin roc.
just because you are sport climbing doesn't mean that rocks aren't coming down. Ask anyone who climbs in el potrero chico. there are over 500 sport routes there and rocks fall every day.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Apr 17, 2007, 11:20 PM
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kimgraves wrote: My understanding is that foam is inadequate for protection from falling ice/rock/gear etc. It's not that it's a one shot deal. It's a NO shot deal. If there is any chance of stuff falling out of the sky on your head you need a hard shell. While a hard shell won't protect you as much as a foam shell if you take a penji into a corner it's better than nothing. While a foam lid under a hail of pebbles is essentially like wearing nothing - it's a crap shoot. It might work, it might not.
Jeezus, where do you people dream this crap up? It's completely false, of course, since all climbing helmets pass the same drop tests. Foam helmets aren't as durable so not a good choice for an expedition. But they give better protection than any hard shell for the vast majority of hits that would send you to the ER or morgue.
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oldsalt
Apr 17, 2007, 11:37 PM
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To generalize, climbing helmets provide more protection from the falling object and less for side impacts.
The only buckets that this brain goes into is one designed for skateboarding. The coverage is superior and includes front, back, sides, and top. I came down off of the vert with too much weight on the front wheels, nose rode across the bowl, and then planted the top right side of my helmet on the concrete. It scraped my Independent Trucks decal off the plastic and left me without pain or injury. That was five years ago and I still wear the helmet.
Strangely enough, they are cheaper by about 40%. The market sets the price, not the level of protection.
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suzie_cuzie
Apr 17, 2007, 11:48 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: kimgraves wrote: My understanding is that foam is inadequate for protection from falling ice/rock/gear etc. It's not that it's a one shot deal. It's a NO shot deal. If there is any chance of stuff falling out of the sky on your head you need a hard shell. While a hard shell won't protect you as much as a foam shell if you take a penji into a corner it's better than nothing. While a foam lid under a hail of pebbles is essentially like wearing nothing - it's a crap shoot. It might work, it might not. Jeezus, where do you people dream this crap up? It's completely false, of course, since all climbing helmets pass the same drop tests. Foam helmets aren't as durable so not a good choice for an expedition. But they give better protection than any hard shell for the vast majority of hits that would send you to the ER or morgue.
Yeah, that was my impression as well...I'd read over and over again about how foam helmets are better for impact dispersal so they'll prevent the majority of concussions, etc., but hard shells - while not so hot for shock absorption - are better at keeping falling rocks from breaking through and lodging themselves in your head ;op
Personally, I don't really find concussions OR jagged rocks sticking out of my head very appealing, so these hybrid helmets seem like the best way to go.
I think I'm gonna go with the Grivel Salamander...
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pjdf
Apr 18, 2007, 12:51 AM
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Personal experience: I dropped my bike helmet off my filing cabinet at work one day (~5' tall). It broke (the foam was visibly cracked inside the helmet). Since then, I've been a bit loathe to use a foam climbing helmet, given that I pack them into packs, they get thrown on the outside of packs and bounced around, etc. If anybody knows a website that talks about the CE and UIAA requirements for helmets, what the tests are, etc.? I could probably search, but thought someone here might know the right webpage off the top of their head.
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kimgraves
Apr 18, 2007, 10:39 PM
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scuclimber wrote: So guys, is everybody going to continue to make conjectures and suppositions without any sources to back them up, or is somebody going to chime in with some data?
Okay, here's the link to the UIAA test. Basically there are three categories: 1) 5 kg falling from two meters over head with not more than 8kn transmitted to the head form 2) 5 kg falling from 0.5 m at a 60degree offset from vertical (side impact) not more than 8 kn transferred to the head form 3) a penetration test of a pointed 1.5 kg mass falling from 1m not touching the head form.
If a helmet passes this test it gets a UIAA rating. But lets look at the real world. Assuming both a foam and hard shell has a UIAA rating. You penji into a corner using either one and as long as the force doesn't exceed the UIAA test you're okay in either lid. The foam deforms but if you're wise you don't take a second fall, you back off to the nearest climbing store and get a new lid.
But the penetration test is the real issue. A rock falls on your foam covered noggin and assuming it doesn't exceed the UIAA norm the foam absorbs the impact and you're okay. But rock fall don't always come in as a single stone. Often it rains rocks or ice. If you're foam is already deformed by a prior impact you're done.
A good hard lid will absorb multiple impacts. For example the HB Dyneema helmet is famous for not just passing the penetration test, but absorbing 20 UIAA impacts prior to failure!!! To me, that's real world protection.
How you get these sort of real world test results out of the manufactures is any one's guess.
Best, Kim
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