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scm007
Apr 11, 2007, 2:33 AM
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Judging by the climbers that I know, I would say that grip strength is important.
Basically I understand and agree with everything you guys are saying except for one thing.
Grip strength comes from climbing, true. However at what point do the gains diminish? And is climbing the best method to gain grip strength for a beginner? Can someone who is already fit start doing more advanced exercises right away? Basically anyone can tell you that you shouldn't try bench pressing 300, until you can bench press 295. But who can tell when you can start training rock strength without some quantitative measure of tendon strength?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not climbing just to get good at climbing, rather I love climbing, it's fun as hell, that's why I do it, and I will continue to do that even if it means forgoing other exercises. Nonetheless, I KNOW my grip strength could be better, and I KNOW that this would directly improve my climbing ability. I also know that my technique needs improvement, and I work on that every climbing session.
Thanks
Steve
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zeke_sf
Apr 11, 2007, 2:39 AM
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scm007 wrote: Also, I have found that the best training programs for me are those with lots of volume. Training a body part 2 times a week is not uncommon for me, and I have had good results doing so.
That's because you were training muscles. Fingers rely on tendons, and those are an entirely different beast. You push those too much and you're lucky if you can twiddle your thumbs while your sitting on your ass afterwards. Seriously. I've gone down the same, conventional strength training path with climbing, and it didn't get me nearly as far as when I started focusing on technique more. I used to focus like a mad man to do 20 pullups with no luck. I then started lead climbing a lot more and gave up on pullups entirely. All of a sudden I could crank out that many regularly. Not huge numbers, but it showed me that technique can lead to strength. My hunch is that a lot of strength training doesn't really simulate climbing effectively. Go out and buy one of the training for climbing books and you'll get a lot of the same advice you're getting here.
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docburner
Apr 11, 2007, 6:44 AM
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I used to train a lot, and my tendons always were on the edge of injury. I plateaued at one level for a long time (year+). I took two 1 hour classes with an extremely good instructor who taught me technique (note good climber!=good instructor). Two weeks later I have increase 4 letter grades and my fingers don't hurt anymore. Old climbs that I thought were impossibly hard are now easy.
My advice to you is to cut back some on your work out routine so you don't get injured, and if you are serious about wanting to put up the big numbers then take classes from someone who is a professional climbing coach.
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overlord
Apr 11, 2007, 8:04 AM
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scm007 wrote: Judging by the climbers that I know, I would say that grip strength is important. Basically I understand and agree with everything you guys are saying except for one thing. Grip strength comes from climbing, true. However at what point do the gains diminish? And is climbing the best method to gain grip strength for a beginner? Can someone who is already fit start doing more advanced exercises right away? Basically anyone can tell you that you shouldn't try bench pressing 300, until you can bench press 295. But who can tell when you can start training rock strength without some quantitative measure of tendon strength? Don't get me wrong, I'm not climbing just to get good at climbing, rather I love climbing, it's fun as hell, that's why I do it, and I will continue to do that even if it means forgoing other exercises. Nonetheless, I KNOW my grip strength could be better, and I KNOW that this would directly improve my climbing ability. I also know that my technique needs improvement, and I work on that every climbing session. Thanks Steve
well, its hard to measure tendon strength. you usually fid out exactly how much you have when its already too late and you ruptured something. tendons dont fail the same way as muscles during an excercise. muscles usually get tired you know when youre at the limit. sings from tendons are much more subtle, they just get sore a little and then they pop.
and getting sick grip strength early will slow down your technique learning because you will be able to just pull through stuff. while this might seem like an improvement, it will lead to an early and serious plateau because at about .12 level or even before youll encounter moves when strength alone just isnt enough, and learning proper movement when you already learned the wrong way will be much more difficult. and dont think that youll automatically learn proper movement when you reach that level. i know quite a few strong climbers (that are in fact stronger than me) that just cant climb hard routes because they dont know how to move.
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ClimberTodd
Apr 11, 2007, 1:04 PM
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Steve,
In all seriousness, as a new climber, forget about grip strength right now. It will come. Have you ever watched an experienced climber send a tough route and make it look effortless? That's more about technique than about strength. Good technique allows you to reserve your strength until you really need it, i.e. at the crux. Good climbers have good strength yes, but technique is much more important, esp. early on.
When I was new, I noticed that I was slapping and kicking my way up each route and groping at every hold. Good climbers move very deliberately, delicately placing each foot and hand and move not wasting any of their precious strength. Learn from watching good climbers and try to emulate their movements. If you are climbing at your limit, you are not gaining all the technique skills you could be. Climb a few a levels below your max and practice placing your feet and hands without having to re-adjust them. Every wasted movement is a drain on your grip. Also, watch and learn how good climbers take rest breaks.
(This post was edited by ClimberTodd on Apr 11, 2007, 10:36 PM)
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lena_chita
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Apr 11, 2007, 2:44 PM
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scm007 wrote: Grip strength comes from climbing, true. However at what point do the gains diminish?
Whatever that point is YOU ARE NOT THERE YET. No matter how strong and fit you are. with two months of climbing under your belt you are not there yet.
scm007 wrote: And is climbing the best method to gain grip strength for a beginner? Can someone who is already fit start doing more advanced exercises right away? Basically anyone can tell you that you shouldn't try bench pressing 300, until you can bench press 295. But who can tell when you can start training rock strength without some quantitative measure of tendon strength?
You are missing the point again, you DON'T NEED TO train grip strength at this point. You are mistaken when you think that grip strength is your limiting factor. You need to learn the basics of movement. It will help you increase the grades at which you are climbing. Your grip strength will also increase while you are improving your technique.
Campusing, systems board, hangboard, HIT, etc. etc. all come in later. And they can be very useful. But you never stop working on your technique.
scm007 wrote: Nonetheless, I KNOW my grip strength could be better, and I KNOW that this would directly improve my climbing ability. I also know that my technique needs improvement, and I work on that every climbing session.
Sounds like you already made up your mind as to what your weakness is, and you are not hearing what people are telling you...
I just introduced a friend of mine (guy) to climbing a couple of months ago. He is strong-- was a wrestler in high school, was in Air Force, runs regularly, can bench-press something crazy, do 20+ pull-ups, etc. In other words, he very much fits your definition of "generally fit" person-- and he is.
His climbing-related complains are EXACLTY like yours-- it's the grip strength that is limiting him. He just CAN'T hang on to that sloper b/c his fingers are weak. According to him, *I* can do it, b/c I have sick grip strength (yeah, right...), and you know, strength to weight ratio, obivously is important, too, so that is why I can do ARC laps on that route, and he is falling on it.
He is also rather obstinate-- LOL, reminds me of you :) -- he doesn't want to listen to advice, so I don't give it usually.
But after he tried wrestling with that miserable "impossible-to-hold-on-to" (maybe 5.9 at most...   ) sloper for the 5th time and came down cursing, I told him: Just TRY this once, O.K.? If it doesn't work, you can go back to what you are doing... but just once-- instead of trying to pull straight on that sloper as if it were a pull-up bar, turn your hip to the wall, get the right foot up, and then go SLOWLY up with your hand.
Bingo-- miraculously his grip didn't fail him.
But as soon as he got on another route and couldn't get off the ground-- well, obviously, it is grip strength failing again, he just can't pull up on that hold strongly enough to get off the ground-- that's it. Obviously. Technique? Core strength? Nah, he has a nice six-pack, he trains his abs regularly, what are you talking about? It is obviously grip strength...
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hirvimaki
Apr 11, 2007, 3:01 PM
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Beating a dead horse, I know, but I always like an excuse to post one of my favorite quotes:
"The Big Concept: Climbing is a movement sport, not a strength sport. The best climbers are good at climbing; strength matters far less than the combination of the climber’s motion skills, attitude and mind. The best way to become a better climber is develop better movement; strength will develop specifically for climbing movement as fast as it is needed. Most climbs are combinations of movements; the better the climber is at those movements, the better he or she will climb the route. Strength is not even secondary, it’s about last on the list of needed skills."
- Will Gadd
Work on technique, the strength will naturally develop as you climb.
PB
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overlord
Apr 11, 2007, 5:19 PM
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lena_chita wrote: He is also rather obstinate-- LOL, reminds me of you :) -- he doesn't want to listen to advice, so I don't give it usually.
LOL, quite a lot of climbers seem to suffer from that.
blaming your strength is the quick way out. its quite easy to improve. but with most beginners, technique is the real limiting factor. i have started coaching a female friend of mine about 5 months ago. and now she warms up on stuff that she couldnt climb when she started, and trust me, it is not because shes that much stronger now. you should see the change in the quality of movement
techique is not the quick way, but if you develop it early (before learning too much wrong stuff) youll learn much quicker than you will when you reach the level where strength alone wont cut it anymore. and then the easy way will remain for the stuff when techique alone wont cut it
(This post was edited by overlord on Apr 11, 2007, 5:24 PM)
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petsfed
Apr 11, 2007, 5:43 PM
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Well, considering that the only way I can hold on to steep slopers is to get the body positioning right, and then its easy, I'd say grip strength is not your problem. The only thing I might suggest you actually train is pinch strength because that's pretty low impact on your tendons. Grab a plate with one hand. Do a curl. Easy eh?
Everything else will come with more climbing.
Climbing exclusively (that is, no other training programs), I still got back into climbing shape. I'm pretty happy with that. The added bonus is that my tendons are the right strength now too.
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sidepull
Apr 11, 2007, 5:56 PM
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petsfed wrote: Well, considering that the only way I can hold on to steep slopers is to get the body positioning right, and then its easy, I'd say grip strength is not your problem. The only thing I might suggest you actually train is pinch strength because that's pretty low impact on your tendons. Grab a plate with one hand. Do a curl. Easy eh? Everything else will come with more climbing. Climbing exclusively (that is, no other training programs), I still got back into climbing shape. I'm pretty happy with that. The added bonus is that my tendons are the right strength now too.
That's a good idea - at the very least that's one grip position that can be trained in a conventional gym.
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phUnk
Apr 16, 2007, 2:40 AM
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I always knew the nay-sayers and nancypants in threads like this were just fat, weak crybabies with soft hands and softer attitudes.
Until I started fingerboard training after only 8 months of climbing, blew my A2 pulley and spent 2 months doing nothing but watching climbing videos on the internet.  *
*True Story.
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kyledodgeballs
Apr 16, 2007, 11:11 AM
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Ha, you have to love how everyone comments on training. scm007 you sound like you are approaching rock climbing as a strength focused athlete/weight lifter. You see people climb hard and want to do the same and you see your body as holding you back. Which is half true. I'm not going to offer any training advice. I'll just say that it is good that you have so much enthusiasm, but make sure you are enjoying it along the way! Climbing isn't all about being competitive and climbing harder all the time. I say enjoy being new to the sport, and enjoy getting stronger and gaining experience, but most importantly have fun! In time it will all come together.
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newtrad
May 3, 2007, 4:35 AM
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docburner wrote: my fingers don't hurt anymore.
Hi,
Could you elaborate on your statement ??
Why your fingers don't hurt ??
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zeke_sf
May 3, 2007, 4:43 AM
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newtrad wrote: docburner wrote: my fingers don't hurt anymore. Hi, Could you elaborate on your statement ?? Why your fingers don't hurt ??
Well, I know Docburner, and I'd say the reason his fingers don't hurt anymore is he's strong as fuck. He could climb a sheer wall using a mouse's tit for a hold. Yeah, that strong! Really though, he probably means he relies more on technique to climb, so he doesn't have to use that plier-like strength he possesses.
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docburner
May 3, 2007, 5:08 AM
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As zack said I have pretty strong grip strength, but my tendons are on the edge of injury because I'm pulling so hard on them. On the edge of injury means that if I pinch my fingers they slightly hurt.
After taking some lessons I have better foot work, better body position, etc. Now my grip strength and tendon strength don't seem to limit my climbing and I don't have to pull nearly as hard on the holds so my tendons don't hurt as much.
I think a lot of people hit a plateau point where they are thinking, well if I was stronger, or weighted less I would climb better. But say you climb 11a and can't get past it. You get in great shape etc, and you can climb 11c, and you probably will injure yourself. If instead you concentrate on learning better technique you probably will hop on a 12a and be like wow that was easy.
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granite_grrl
May 3, 2007, 1:31 PM
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I havea friend who's a hair dresser who has wicked grip strength. I'm sure its from using his hands all dall with the little motions required to cut hair.
So i'd sugest taking up hair dressing.
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collegekid
May 6, 2007, 4:36 AM
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(This post was edited by collegekid on May 6, 2007, 5:59 AM)
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ltj999
May 7, 2007, 10:03 PM
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basically, at this point, climb, alot. work on technique i.e. long traverses to get your climbing smooth and develope aim with your hands and feet. dont train forearm strength, . if ya wanna go and do some pullups or whatnot, fine go for it, but wait a few months to a year for those tendons. in the long run you will be much better. bcause climbing with just strength is great for jugs, but I would say you need more technique to hang on those slopers than just contact strength, i.e. body tesnsion angle of hanging etc.
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primus
May 14, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Ok, let me take a crack at this by summarizing what every person who has posted here is saying:
1) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
2) F*ck technique! Buy a campus board! You can work on technique later--after you're sending .12s!
3) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
4) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
5) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
6) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
7) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
8) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
9) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
10) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
11) Don't worry about training grip strength at your stage of learning; work on improving the way you move.
...
44) Go read some books on training for climbing. They'll tell you not to worry about training your grip strength, that doing so may lead you to injury and may form bad habits. They'll tell you to work on your technique. Focus on getting as much weight as possible off of your hands and onto your feet is key.
Now do you get it?
Edit: typo
(This post was edited by primus on May 14, 2007, 10:03 PM)
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Climbin4Vs
May 14, 2007, 11:08 PM
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jt512 wrote: saxybrian wrote: I agree, at later stages feet work is the most important thing, and it's what I'm working on now to improve into the 5.12 range. However, when starting out, I don't like to suggest new people to work on feet due to the fact that you'll put more weight and strain on your hands starting off therefore improving grip strength. Once their grip strength goes up, then work on your feet. That's about the dumbest advice I've ever read on this site, and, believe me, that's saying a lot. Jay
Couldn't agree more.
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c22
May 16, 2007, 5:29 PM
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My strength is holding me back, fuck technique.
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wolfski
May 17, 2007, 4:33 AM
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i dont want to repeat what others have said but i would just like to add whats the rush? there are tons of great 5.9s out there to climb and can be just as fun. by the time you feel ready to move up im sure your technique and strength will have improved enough that the transition will be just as easy.
Im just a beginner climber too but i just want to say that i have more fun climbing a 5.9 comfortably then just muscling my way up a 5.10 and knowing i climbed it like shit.
If im looking to improve my technique would you suggest focusing more on bouldering or leading/TR or work on both just as much?
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charleston
May 21, 2007, 5:39 AM
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yep 10:4
i am also just rookie but i have heaps of fun climbing what ever grades and just improving my technique and learning my gear placements.
i think thats whats improtant about our sport just have fun and be safe and just love ever moment of it.
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cbusrocks
May 22, 2007, 2:26 PM
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I started climbing a few months ago in a similar situation as yourself, I began the sport to fill my free time after 4 years of college athletics, but I'd have to agree with the experts here though.
Think about it this way, if you are climbing 3 times a week and your wrists and fingers seem sore afterward, you seem to be getting a very good workout just from climbing. Even considering that your grip/forearms are a small muscle group with generally quicker recovery times, I wouldn't lift a similar group, such as abs, more than 3 times a week.
For climbing, you are training your grip for endurance rather than power, so the power grip clamps don't really make a whole lot of sense anyway. Keep climbing and your grip will improve, there is no reason to overtrain when you just started.
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dropkicked
Jun 18, 2007, 12:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: saxybrian wrote: I agree, at later stages feet work is the most important thing, and it's what I'm working on now to improve into the 5.12 range. However, when starting out, I don't like to suggest new people to work on feet due to the fact that you'll put more weight and strain on your hands starting off therefore improving grip strength. Once their grip strength goes up, then work on your feet. That's about the dumbest advice I've ever read on this site, and, believe me, that's saying a lot. Jay
Lol!
Footwork has to be the single most important aspect of climbing. Legs > Arms. Always. I don't care who you are. It isn't that you are setting your tendons up for failure but that you are using a different set of muscles to accomplish the same task more effectively. With better feet, you won't need the grip strength because the weight will be held elsewhere. Then, as your ability/difficulty of climbs increases your strength will also.
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