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iceaxe_us
Jun 7, 2007, 8:54 PM
Post #26 of 38
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majid_sabet wrote: With this recent incident I do not think I support this so called TECHNICAL TIP
The biner block is a standard technique that has been used safely for many years in the canyoneering community. It came about because you can't let the tails of your rope flow free in a rivers current, otherwise the ropes get tangled and stuck under debris downstream.
As with most techniques.... when rigged correctly it works like a charm. When rigged incorrectly bad things happen.
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iceaxe_us
Jun 7, 2007, 10:11 PM
Post #27 of 38
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Its was not the clove hitch on the biner that was the problem. The problem is there was a second biner in the equation (that should not have been there). If you look at the pictures posted earlier the rapid (small screw link) in the picture was replaced with a second (large) biner.
The clove hitch on the biner is used to create a biner block because its simple, easy and safe.
FWIW: I have NEVER seen anyone use a safety in the field as pictured in this example.
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swede
Jun 8, 2007, 11:02 AM
Post #28 of 38
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I do not know anything about canyoning, but what strikes me is the lack of redundancy.
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reg
Jun 8, 2007, 12:22 PM
Post #29 of 38
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iceaxe - gotta second you on the "saftey" - defeats the whole purpose in that you can't pull your rope so i guess this setup must mean their commin back.
swede: i believe there is redundentcy albeit minimal - the block and the eight backin up or in a retrivable system, the block and the BFKnot that ties the retrival line to the rap line.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 8, 2007, 12:35 PM
Post #30 of 38
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As far as the "back up" safety that is shown. I have used (and seen this used) for all but the last person descending. Canyoneering quite often uses the "last man at risk" theory of making sure all but the last man gets redundancy that would typically make your system un-retrievable. The last man unclips the back up (which should be easy as it has hopefully not been weighted) and raps off of only the biner block. It is a fantastic system if used as pictured. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a larger object to pull through a small rapide (quick link).
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 8, 2007, 12:57 PM
Post #31 of 38
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You would be nutts to not use the safty. The safty is there to make sure the system works. The last man cleans the safty. If you are solo you weight the system, make sure everything is kosher then you remove the safty and rap. We do this all the time Ice climbing with V threads. You make the thread and bounce test it with a screw back up, send the fat guy first and the last person cleans the back up. Even standard rappels I weight my rap system to make sure everything is kosher BEFORE I unclip from the anchors.
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billl7
Jun 8, 2007, 1:54 PM
Post #32 of 38
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tradmanclimbs wrote: You would be nutts to not use the safty. The safty is there to make sure the system works. The last man cleans the safty. If you are solo you weight the system, make sure everything is kosher then you remove the safty and rap.
As for weighting the system before rapping, I would still prefer to have a fully independent attachment between my harness and the anchor.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 8, 2007, 2:04 PM
Post #33 of 38
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In reply to: As for weighting the system before rapping, I would still prefer to have a fully independent attachment between my harness and the anchor.
Most people that I know of in the community have a safety tether that can be clipped (and locked) to the anchor independantly for testing and rigging purposes.
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majid_sabet
Jun 8, 2007, 4:36 PM
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Do not forget , in any accident, your friends are #1 on the list of investigators.
====================================
By RYAN HAMMILL
THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER
Washington County sheriff's investigators do not suspect foul play in the death of a Garden Grove man who fell more than 300 feet in Utah's Zion National Park, officials said Thursday.
Investigators are focusing on the equipment used by Keith Biedermann, 48, as he rappelled from a cliff in the Emerald Pools area of the 230-square-mile park before falling around 2:30 p.m. Monday, said Lt. Jake Adams of the Washington County Sheriff's Office.
"From what we understand, this is just a terrible accident," Adams said. "I've been told the victim was a dedicated and serious hiker or mountaineer type."
Biedermann's wife, Thuy Biedermann, declined to comment about the incident.
Police are interviewing two of Biedermann's friends on the trip to corroborate their accounts of the fall. The two are not suspected of any crime and hiked an hour to the nearest ranger station to get help, Adams said.
The Utah State Medical Examiner released Biedermann's remains to his family after an autopsy in Salt Lake City.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 8, 2007, 4:37 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 8, 2007, 5:07 PM
Post #35 of 38
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thedesertnomad wrote: As far as the "back up" safety that is shown. I have used (and seen this used) for all but the last person descending. Canyoneering quite often uses the "last man at risk" theory of making sure all but the last man gets redundancy that would typically make your system un-retrievable. The last man unclips the back up (which should be easy as it has hopefully not been weighted) and raps off of only the biner block. It is a fantastic system if used as pictured. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a larger object to pull through a small rapide (quick link).
I am not sure if this " last man at risk" means in this application but generally, in any group size activity, the most logical way to make sure that every arrives safely is to have the most experienced member to rap first to set up the next rap and keep the second most experienced member to be the last person to rap. This is to insure that all low and mixed level experienced people within the group are correctly attached and inspected before rapping. This is extremely critical when rigging is done at night near any moving water where person to person communication is near none.
Finally;
The last person to clean up should not be the least experienced member at any cost. A good team leader should discuss all the technical planning before they head up.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 18, 2007, 5:35 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 8, 2007, 9:46 PM
Post #36 of 38
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Good reply majid. that pretty much nailes it. head guide goes first to set up next station #2 guide makes suer eveyone gets into rap safely and then cleans bakup gear and raps. You can run into problems when noone is in charge. Bunch of friends chatting and haveing fun but noone feels the right or need to be the leader.
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rcwild
Jun 18, 2007, 4:49 PM
Post #37 of 38
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A few of the points being made here would be valid IF you were discussing a rock climbing accident. You're not. There are certainly some similarities between climbing and canyoneering, but many aspects (risks and techniques) are quite different.
Rich Carlson
American Canyoneering Association
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camhead
Jun 18, 2007, 5:16 PM
Post #38 of 38
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there was another accident in Zion a couple days ago. A hiker fell off Angel's Landing to his death.
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