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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 9:02 PM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way. Believe it or not, you have more control by letting the rope slide through your hands than you do by shuffling. Either way, you can stop the climber instantaneously, but by letting the rope slide through, you don't jerk the climber at all (not a little, not a modified amount, but not at all), and you can vary the speed to suit the situation. Jay I taught the same method I use to my brother and I don't feel any jerking at all as the climber. What methods have you used to determine which gives you more control? Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm curious. I've probably used every method of belaying and lowering ever devised, other than the foot belay. However, I can prove that you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through the device than by shuffling you hands in two steps: 1. You can stop your partner instantly whether you let rope slide through your hands or shuffle them. 2. You can lower you partner as fast or as slow as you want if you let rope slide through your hands, but when shuffling your hands, your lowering speed is limited by the speed at which you can shuffle your hands back and forth. Therefore, you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through your hands. Jay I see. It's a semantic difference then. My definition of control didn't include speed, just the ability to lock off and safely lower the climber.
Well, that ability is equal either way.
In reply to: Lowering faster than I can shuffle is not something I was interested in doing.
You should be interested in lowering both faster and more smoothly than you can by shuffling your hands. In general, your partners will appreciated not having to spend so much time sitting in their harness, and getting (even a "modified") jerky lower. And in an emergency, the ability to lower fast (and smooth) can be crucial.
Jay
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 9:03 PM
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So I would say that the level of control is the same (ignoring speed) with shuffling versus sliding. My main point was against the hand over hand method, the more hands on the brake side the better.
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 9:06 PM
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jt512 wrote: You should be interested in lowering both faster and more smoothly than you can by shuffling your hands. In general, your partners will appreciated not having to spend so much time sitting in their harness, and getting (even a "modified") jerky lower. And in an emergency, the ability to lower fast (and smooth) can be crucial. Jay
I am fully capable of speedily and safely lowering a climber with a sliding or shuffling method in a situation that requires it. My partners definitely don't spend any more time in their harness than the average climber elsewhere being lowered by any other method (ignoring the elevator rides from a grigri). And still, I beg to differ about the "jerkiness".
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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 9:11 PM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: You should be interested in lowering both faster and more smoothly than you can by shuffling your hands. In general, your partners will appreciated not having to spend so much time sitting in their harness, and getting (even a "modified") jerky lower. And in an emergency, the ability to lower fast (and smooth) can be crucial. Jay I am fully capable of speedily and safely lowering a climber with a sliding or shuffling method in a situation that requires it.
No, actually, you're not, unless you have bionic arms, or something. When a local climber dropped a large rock onto his 2-year-old daughter's head from 80 feet up a few years ago, it is good that it wasn't you who was belaying him.
Edit: I have had to retrain every single belayer I've ever had who lowered me hand-over-hand because they lowered me unnecessarily slowly and jerky. I suppose it is possible that you might faster and smoother, but it's unlikely.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 14, 2007, 9:13 PM)
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time2clmb
Aug 14, 2007, 9:31 PM
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reg wrote: it's japanese - it's called the "friendly friction happy hands plams down" method. it works!
ahhh yes...gives me good laugh happy time. That post gets a trophy.
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kobaz
Aug 15, 2007, 1:51 AM
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jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: You should be interested in lowering both faster and more smoothly than you can by shuffling your hands. In general, your partners will appreciated not having to spend so much time sitting in their harness, and getting (even a "modified") jerky lower. And in an emergency, the ability to lower fast (and smooth) can be crucial. Jay I am fully capable of speedily and safely lowering a climber with a sliding or shuffling method in a situation that requires it. No, actually, you're not, unless you have bionic arms, or something. Jay
Completely uncalled for. Who are you to judge me and my belaying capabilities based on a short discussion about style on a web forum.
I will note that I do not use the hand over hand method.
jt512 wrote: When a local climber dropped a large rock onto his 2-year-old daughter's head from 80 feet up a few years ago, it is good that it wasn't you who was belaying him.
Why this has anything to do with belaying style is beyond me.
Edit: I don't usually edit, but I had to fix some grammar.
(This post was edited by kobaz on Aug 15, 2007, 1:55 AM)
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kobaz
Aug 15, 2007, 1:53 AM
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Well, I know who you are in terms of rc.com. And I have in the past ran into threads where you have been proven wrong. This is no exception.
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jt512
Aug 15, 2007, 2:08 AM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: You should be interested in lowering both faster and more smoothly than you can by shuffling your hands. In general, your partners will appreciated not having to spend so much time sitting in their harness, and getting (even a "modified") jerky lower. And in an emergency, the ability to lower fast (and smooth) can be crucial. Jay I am fully capable of speedily and safely lowering a climber with a sliding or shuffling method in a situation that requires it. No, actually, you're not, unless you have bionic arms, or something. Jay Completely uncalled for. Who are you to judge me and my belaying capabilities based on a short discussion about style on a web forum.
I don't have to know you to know that you can't lower someone as fast by shuffling your hands as you could by letting the rope slide through them, because no one could.
In reply to: jt512 wrote: When a local climber dropped a large rock onto his 2-year-old daughter's head from 80 feet up a few years ago, it is good that it wasn't you who was belaying him. Why this has anything to do with belaying style is beyond me.
What is so hard to understand? You claimed that you can lower as fast as necessary in any situation by lowering hand over hand, a method that is clearly slower than letting rope through your hands. I gave an example of an actual accident where lowering with the maximum possible safe speed was essential. A belayer lowering the injured kid's dad by letting rope slide through the device could get him down the necessary 80 feet in a few seconds. Shuffling your hands back and forth like a gym-trained n00b would take many times longer, an unacceptable delay in a possible life-or-death situation.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 15, 2007, 2:11 AM)
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kobaz
Aug 15, 2007, 2:21 AM
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jt512 wrote: What is so hard to understand? You claimed that you can lower as fast as necessary in any situation by lowering hand over hand, a method that is clearly slower than letting rope through your hands. I gave an example of an actual accident where lowering with the maximum possible safe speed was essential. A belayer lowering the injured kid's dad by letting rope slide through the device could get him down the necessary 80 feet in a few seconds. Shuffling your hands back and forth like a gym-trained n00b would take many times longer, an unacceptable delay in a possible life-or-death situation. Jay
You left out some context and assumed I would know exactly what was going on. If there were other people around to handle the injured kid than the belay style would have been moot. Who brings a two year old to a cliff anyway... but that's besides the point.
Ready for this one? This is the third time. I repeat. I do not use the hand over hand method. The whole point of my first post was advocating against the hand over hand method. But if you want to continue your straw man argument, be my guest.
Apparently you didn't notice, but I also said I am fully capable of using the sliding method to quickly lower a climber if the situation requires it. If someone was in need of getting down quickly, I can do just that. Although I do prefer to not let the rope slide in normal lowering situations.
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jt512
Aug 15, 2007, 2:36 AM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: What is so hard to understand? You claimed that you can lower as fast as necessary in any situation by lowering hand over hand, a method that is clearly slower than letting rope through your hands. I gave an example of an actual accident where lowering with the maximum possible safe speed was essential. A belayer lowering the injured kid's dad by letting rope slide through the device could get him down the necessary 80 feet in a few seconds. Shuffling your hands back and forth like a gym-trained n00b would take many times longer, an unacceptable delay in a possible life-or-death situation. Jay You left out some context and assumed I would know exactly what was going on.
No, the context was quite clear. Go back and read the post.
In reply to: If there were other people around to handle the injured kid than the belay style would have been moot.
I can assure you that if it was your child bleeding from a head wound of unknown seriousness, you would not think the speed at which your belayer could get you down would be moot.
In reply to: Ready for this one? This is the third time. I repeat. I do not use the hand over hand method.
I know you don't. You shuffle your hands back and forth. Duh.
In reply to: But if you want to continue your straw man argument, be my guest.
I'm not making a strawman argument. I'm telling you that shuffling your hands back and forth to lower someone is unnecessary for safety, and is slow and jerky, with no compensating benefit. Instead of saying, "ok, I'll try the other way next time out and see if you're right," you just throw up a stone wall, and insist that shuffling is fast and smooth "enough."
In reply to: Apparently you didn't notice, but I also said I am fully capable of using the sliding method to quickly lower a climber if the situation requires it.
You're right. I did miss that in your earlier post.
Jay
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kobaz
Aug 15, 2007, 2:47 AM
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jt512 wrote: In reply to: Ready for this one? This is the third time. I repeat. I do not use the hand over hand method. I know you don't. You shuffle your hands back and forth. Duh. In reply to: But if you want to continue your straw man argument, be my guest. I'm not making a strawman argument.
You kept attacking me on the hand over hand method when I was against it as well, so it seemed you were doing pretty good on misrepresenting my angle.
jt512 wrote: I'm telling you that shuffling your hands back and forth to lower someone is unnecessary for safety, and is slow and jerky, with no compensating benefit. Instead of saying, "ok, I'll try the other way next time out and see if you're right," you just throw up a stone wall, and insist that shuffling is fast and smooth "enough."
The reason I didn't say "okay I'll try it out" is because I'm already familiar with it, and prefer not to use it. My "wall" was about sliding vs my shuffling to be no real difference in "normal" (non-epic, non-accident) climbing situations.
So at least we've made some progress here, heh.
Edit: hmm, I should use preview more often.
(This post was edited by kobaz on Aug 15, 2007, 2:49 AM)
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jt512
Aug 15, 2007, 3:01 AM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Ready for this one? This is the third time. I repeat. I do not use the hand over hand method. I know you don't. You shuffle your hands back and forth. Duh. In reply to: But if you want to continue your straw man argument, be my guest. I'm not making a strawman argument. You kept attacking me on the hand over hand method when I was against it as well...
I don't know where you got that idea. I haven't made a single comment to you about the hand-over-hand method, at least not in this thread.
Jay
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kobaz
Aug 15, 2007, 3:03 AM
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It would be where you said:
jt512 wrote: What is so hard to understand? You claimed that you can lower as fast as necessary in any situation by lowering hand over hand, a method that is clearly slower than letting rope through your hands. |
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curt
Aug 15, 2007, 3:40 AM
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shufflers = sharks
sliders = jets
There's gonna be trouble in the street...
Curt
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jt512
Aug 15, 2007, 3:58 AM
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kobaz wrote: It would be where you said: jt512 wrote: What is so hard to understand? You claimed that you can lower as fast as necessary in any situation by lowering hand over hand, a method that is clearly slower than letting rope through your hands.
My mistake. I meant shuffling.
Jay
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fracture
Aug 15, 2007, 4:58 AM
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jt512 wrote: I can assure you that if it was your child bleeding from a head wound of unknown seriousness, you would not think the speed at which your belayer could get you down would be moot.
How'd that turn out, by the way?
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jt512
Aug 15, 2007, 5:03 AM
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fracture wrote: jt512 wrote: I can assure you that if it was your child bleeding from a head wound of unknown seriousness, you would not think the speed at which your belayer could get you down would be moot. How'd that turn out, by the way?
A deep cut, but not life threatening.
Jay
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AZrockclimber1988
Aug 15, 2007, 5:53 AM
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thomasribiere wrote: I think that most french people belay palm down. Could we call it French Style?
I belay palm down when lead belaying, which to me is easier and safer. It was the way I was taught. I only use palm up when toprope belaying or second belay.
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curt
Aug 15, 2007, 6:02 AM
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AZrockclimber1988 wrote: thomasribiere wrote: I think that most french people belay palm down. Could we call it French Style? I belay palm down when lead belaying, which to me is easier and safer. It was the way I was taught. I only use palm up when toprope belaying or second belay.
Palm up versus palm down makes no difference whatsoever. It's all about where your hand is with respect to separating the ropes (assuming an ATC-like device is used) when a fall occurs. If the belayer can efficiently "lock-off" the device, that's all that matters.
Curt
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reg
Aug 15, 2007, 11:46 AM
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curt wrote: Palm up versus palm down makes no difference whatsoever. It's all about where your hand is with respect to separating the ropes (assuming an ATC-like device is used) when a fall occurs. If the belayer can efficiently "lock-off" the device, that's all that matters. Curt
thank gwad - the final word - now just end it!
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dallas27
Aug 15, 2007, 1:39 PM
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As the OP (a symbolic power at best) please try to keep it civil everyone.
I know no matter what technique you use, someone is always out there attacking it. Don't be that guy. Nobody likes that guy.
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dallas27
Aug 16, 2007, 10:16 PM
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cracklover wrote: What's a bit unusual, though, is the way slack is taken in. Still, this method is pretty common when "adjusting", or taking in very small amounts of slack. Frankly, it doesn't even work for taking in larger amounts of slack, since it's dependent on the rope either being very stiff, or there being so little rope between the brake hand and the device that the rope won't buckle when you slide the brake hand back up it. GO
I actually use that "adjustment" method for TR belaying a lot. I have almost a karate kid "wax-on" motion with my brake hand. I loosen my grip just a bit, slip my hand up, snatch the rope nearer the deviceand push my hand out to the side to suck up slack and back down to my hip in the brake position.
It's one fluid circular motion taking in total probably a quarter of a second. I also belay from the harness, not the loop. This method isn't as easy when belaying from the loop because of the play in the carabiner.
My guide hand remains on the guide strand.
I catch a lot of flack for this style from certain types of people. Some say it's unsafe because I don't have a death grip on the rope when it's sliding. I call shenangians, because it's no more or less loose than the palms up method, only I'm in a locked orienation, not unlocked like the palms up method.
added bonus, the motion practically self coils the rope for you.
(This post was edited by dallas27 on Aug 16, 2007, 10:28 PM)
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jakedatc
Aug 16, 2007, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: I also belay from the harness, not the loop.
If your harness has a belay loop then you should use it. Read the instructions on your harness.
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dallas27
Aug 16, 2007, 11:48 PM
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jakedatc wrote: In reply to: I also belay from the harness, not the loop. If your harness has a belay loop then you should use it. Read the instructions on your harness.
I'm sure this has been covered in many a thread already, if not, let's start a new thread and keep this one clean.
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