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Upperlimits
Aug 28, 2007, 2:31 PM
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I like to push myself hard. I find I like to get up Trad climbs where I'm out of gas at some point and need to take a rest on my gear.
Do you consider this a No-no? I can climb easier routes all day but I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. By resting on my gear some on a tough climb I feel like I progress faster.
What say you?
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vegastradguy
Aug 28, 2007, 2:38 PM
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Upperlimits wrote: I like to push myself hard. I find I like to get up Trad climbs where I'm out of gas at some point and need to take a rest on my gear. Do you consider this a No-no? I can climb easier routes all day but I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. By resting on my gear some on a tough climb I feel like I progress faster. What say you?
personally, i consider it bad style to rest on gear. go until failure if you want to push yourself- take a fall. but just grabbing gear on your way up a route...might as well be aiding it (which, depending on the situation, is not a bad thing).
imho, trad is all about mileage- physically, its not, but mentally it is. spending alot of time at the lower levels will give you the experience and mental ability to push yourself to your limits physically. i spent years climbing nothing harder than 5.8, then slowly moved to 5.9, and then to 5.10s...i've been leading 5.10s for about 3 years now, and am just now starting to lead .11s....sure, i probably could have progressed faster, but i feel like i'm a better climber for having developed a strong foundation at each grade....
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2007, 3:15 PM
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Upperlimits wrote: I like to push myself hard. I find I like to get up Trad climbs where I'm out of gas at some point and need to take a rest on my gear. Do you consider this a No-no? I can climb easier routes all day but I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. By resting on my gear some on a tough climb I feel like I progress faster. What say you?
I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to climb harder routes clean on trad gear, then obviously resting doesn't work (but it wouldn't work anywhere else, so I don't think it's any different here).
From a mental perspective, I'd much rather rest on gear than fall on it. This isn't to say I don't fall on trad gear, but if I get in a tight spot, I'd much rather sit back, scout the route and rest before continuing. Also, from a safety perspective, resting on the gear allows me to watch the piece I'm resting on as I weight it. There's no chance of that happening on a fall.
Finally, this is simply my style. While it is nice to say I climbed something clean, that is not what drives me. I'm confident in my physical abilities, and I tend to get stronger mentally the scarier a climb gets. It is challenging my problem-solving deficencies that actually gets the blood flowing for me. So I really think it depends on what you're trying to do.
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caughtinside
Aug 28, 2007, 3:28 PM
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I rest on gear all the time when I'm working a project. Usually something hard, single pitch.
I guess it's just a tactic I picked up from sport climbing, working individual moves and taking to rest.
I suppose some would call it bad style, but I don't really give a hoot. But, if I think I have a chance to onsight the climb, I won't do it until I fall.
But VTG is right, taking on gear is aid. But it can be a useful tool if you're working a route.
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zeke_sf
Aug 28, 2007, 3:37 PM
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I've fallen on gear more than rested on it. If I get up to, say, a 5.10B offwidth and realize I have no chance at it, then I'm much more likely to rest. If I think I have a chance at it, then I'll gun for it. Improving aid skills on free climbs is also a useful skill I'd like to get better at. I've taken the more push myself on gear approach than what Vegastradguy espouses. Then again, I've only pushed myself on climbs that pro relatively well. I think you learn pretty fast when you place yourself in a higher stress situation, but cruising up climbs that are moderate to your skill level is also useful. I suppose resting on your gear depends on how much you trust your gear, and whether your goal is to just get up a particular climb or if it is to free that climb. I'd say you learn more by pushing yourself to where you might fall because you'll learn to push yourself and start succeeding, whereas the decision to rest on gear will only enforce that habit.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Aug 28, 2007, 3:39 PM)
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zeke_sf
Aug 28, 2007, 3:41 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I rest on gear all the time when I'm working a project. Usually something hard, single pitch. I guess it's just a tactic I picked up from sport climbing, working individual moves and taking to rest. I suppose some would call it bad style, but I don't really give a hoot. But, if I think I have a chance to onsight the climb, I won't do it until I fall. But VTG is right, taking on gear is aid. But it can be a useful tool if you're working a route.
I'd agree if you are pretty sure it's a climb you're going to redpoint anyway, resting on gear is a useful tactic. Better than taking some repeated whips when all you want to do the first time is see the terrain.
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trenchdigger
Aug 28, 2007, 3:54 PM
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To me, having to rest on gear is failure to the greatest degree. The goal when I free climb is to lead a route cleanly. If I rest on gear, it means I gave up. It means I was climbing so poorly that, even though the moves were'nt too hard for me to do, I managed to climb so inefficiently that I got too tired to finish the route.
I do sometimes push to the point of failure and hang on gear on a route. But that is the exception to the norm.
I really don't see how frequently getting in over your head and hanging on gear on a route could improve your climbing faster than climbing at or near your limit. At your limit, you can focus on climbing smoothly and efficiently, and with the best technique - skills that will more quickly bring you to the next level.
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8flood8
Aug 28, 2007, 3:55 PM
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please by no means take this as a flame,
but i remember being chastized about hang dogging my way up a route
and all these rc.com peons were telling me that even if i took a fall i would be aiding,
so "aiding" a route that you can't do doesn't really sound like a reason, not to rest on gear.
isn't it safer to not take a lead fall on gear (especially if you are a new leader) given that it may just "look good" rather than actually "be" a good placement.
is your point about falling, just to gain confidence in climbing hard over your gear? i agree that is one way to push yourself, but it sounds like he wants to push a little slower than taking lead falls.
i might be inferring incorrectly
or i might just be babbling
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vegastradguy
Aug 28, 2007, 4:06 PM
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8flood8 wrote: is your point about falling, just to gain confidence in climbing hard over your gear? i agree that is one way to push yourself, but it sounds like he wants to push a little slower than taking lead falls.
my point about falling is that if you're climbing at a level where you want to push yourself physically on trad, you need to be climbing until failure (by the way, just to clarify further- you shouldnt be climbing until you fall until you're climbing somewhere around the 5.10 level- below that, falls are much more likely to result in injury. there are exceptions, of course, and a short fall on a 5.8 isnt the end of the world, but i'd avoid it if possible).
at least, this is my opinion on the matter. it doesnt sound like he's projecting- if he is, better to go to the sport climbing forum to get advice on how to do this efficiently.
more importantly, however, is taking the time to develop your other skills. protecting adequately, identifying good placements, developing a broad base of skills (chimney, offwidth, handcrack, finger crack, face, etc, etc).
i would argue that when you're new to trad, you should spend a long time developing basic skills in both placement of gear and climbing techniques.
like so many before me have said- when it comes to trad, you can either push yourself physically or mentally, but not both at the same time.
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dreday3000
Aug 28, 2007, 4:14 PM
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Personally, if the gear is good I'm normally dissapointed in myself when I rest on my gear. Falling on you gear helps build confidence in your systems, a more thorough understanding of your placements, and improve you head game.
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j_ung
Aug 28, 2007, 4:25 PM
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You know, for me it really depends on my goals for that specific attempt on that specific route and the gear placement options available. Throw in my terror-alert level of the moment -- if the red duck tape is already out...
Suffice to say that, in the context of this thread, I don't have anything resembling a set of rules I always follow.
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2007, 4:29 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: To me, having to rest on gear is failure to the greatest degree. The goal when I free climb is to lead a route cleanly. If I rest on gear, it means I gave up. It means I was climbing so poorly that, even though the moves were'nt too hard for me to do, I managed to climb so inefficiently that I got too tired to finish the route.
I don't disagree with this entirely. Certainly, climbing a route clean is of a better style than hangdogging, but I'm not so sure it constitutes failure in a general sense. I have fallen a lot on trad gear and do so mainly because I am sure I can make the moves, but, obviously, sometimes it just doesn't work out. But if I'm a couple of hundred feet off the deck, and I'm a bit confused by the sequence, I don't see the point of flailing for the sake of hoping I'll pull it through. Obviously, if I'm way above my last piece, that's what I'm going to try to do. But if I'm at or just above my last piece, I'd much rather stop, rest and figure out the sequence before putting myself in a spot where a fall could lead to an injury of some sorts.
But again, success for me is getting outside and forgetting about the rest of the world. I admit that I feel better when I climb something clean, but stress relief is a bigger goal of mine.
trenchdigger wrote: I really don't see how frequently getting in over your head and hanging on gear on a route could improve your climbing faster than climbing at or near your limit. At your limit, you can focus on climbing smoothly and efficiently, and with the best technique - skills that will more quickly bring you to the next level.
I'm not so sure of this. It's the old one-step-backward-and-two-steps-forward argument that I like to think about. I always suck on harder routes that are just above my limit, but without trying them first, I don't know how one learns to better refine technique. After all, in a general sense, one can get away with poorer crimping technique on a 5.10a than one can get away with on a 5.11a. I'm not sure how you'd know just how good your technique is unless you actually jump on a harder climb. And then it makes sense that you'll struggle at first, but will slowly learn to make the moves and understand the commitment involved on harder climbs. Climbing on routes that cause me to struggle, I think, will always help me to improve.
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caughtinside
Aug 28, 2007, 4:29 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: I really don't see how frequently getting in over your head and hanging on gear on a route could improve your climbing faster than climbing at or near your limit. At your limit, you can focus on climbing smoothly and efficiently, and with the best technique - skills that will more quickly bring you to the next level.
I'd disagree with this. Think of it like working a hard sport project. Maybe you're not into that, and that's cool. But it can be fun to have a line you're really interested in. Like a hard sport project, you may not even be able to pull the individual moves each time out. The climb may be beta intensive. The best climbers in the world put in multiple attempts on their hardest climbs. Some of them may do it the traditional ground up way, and some probably TR and then dog it to work sequences. Whatever floats your boat!
But back to the quote, it's not always about 'getting better.' Sometimes its about a cool climb that you want to do, and doing hard moves. And on such a project, the difference between your first attempt and second attempt can be dramatic.
Oh, I'm not talking about something that's way way over your head, that you have no chance of redpointing in like 20 tries. Just something hard.
Just remember, you can't onsight everything! Or if you do, are you really trying?
i feel like this thread was about resting on gear in general and not about redpointing cracks though...
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jt512
Aug 28, 2007, 4:44 PM
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I feel sorry for the OP. This was a clear attempt to start a style war, and all he got was an interesting, civil discussion. What is climbing coming to these days?
Jay
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8flood8
Aug 28, 2007, 6:06 PM
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i like the advice of not challenging myself in gear and in climbing at the same time....
but where i climb... there are barely... any 8's, the cracks are crumbly, flaring, with horrible feet.
now then, i've dogged my way up 11c (read crime of the century in squamish)
i've flashed 5.10 (seasoned in the sun) on toprope, but being out there, being the one on the sharp end, there isn't a lot of climbing that i can get on that is
A) below my level, to get gear mileage on
B) at my level with good protection
so i am forced into this spasm of hangdogging up any new line that i get scared and tired on.
i guess i'm just a no-onsight lame-ass sportrad -climber. i climb my cracks just like my bolted routes. if its too hard, i'm dogging the gear because i've led WAY too few routes to be taking whips on my gear.
what is your suggestion then? aid- the crack- and mock lead the shit out of it??
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livinonasandbar
Aug 28, 2007, 6:48 PM
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From a post by JimDavis earlier this month:
"Around 1pm on Saturday a climber took about a 20' leader fall when they attempted to rest on a tri-cam they placed, which pulled out when weighted. They fell, hitting a ledge on the way down, resulting in a severe compound fracture to their left ankle."
Trad placements just aren't the same as 3/8-inch expansion bolts... Otherwise, you should do whatever you want without regard for other's opinions. Afterall, it's only a game.
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dingus
Aug 28, 2007, 6:57 PM
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I decided it was stupid to break my leg over the principle that resting on gear is some type of failure and should be avoided at all costs.
I decided my leg bones were worth more than that - a lot more.
Just a personal point of view mind you.
DMT
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8flood8
Aug 28, 2007, 7:06 PM
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dingus what do you mean...
you decided it was stupid, so you kept climbing instead of weighting the gear??
i'm confused by your statement
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8flood8
Aug 28, 2007, 7:08 PM
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so what is your point? that gear pulls out?
what if that climber had climbed past the point of exhaustion above that tri-cam that didn't even hold bodyweight? lucky he rested instead of ... "takin the whip"
might have done more than just blast his ankle out of his body
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musicman1586
Aug 28, 2007, 7:20 PM
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Upperlimits wrote: I like to push myself hard. I find I like to get up Trad climbs where I'm out of gas at some point and need to take a rest on my gear. Do you consider this a No-no? I can climb easier routes all day but I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. By resting on my gear some on a tough climb I feel like I progress faster. What say you?
I won't get into the stylistic side of things, because that's all in how you approach and feel about climbing ethics and what have you. However if you rest on gear, do not claim that you've made an ascent of that route. To some it is bad style, to others it is more than appropriate, but to anyone you have not made a successful ascent of that route, and so long as at the end of the day you still consider it a project for yourself , then all is well. Oh, and obviously, if you don't think the gear will really hold to begin with, I wouldn't suggest resting on it 
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livinonasandbar
Aug 28, 2007, 7:24 PM
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Yup, he certainly might have...
The old boys maintained (and rock guides still do) that "the leader must not fall". I don't like testing trad placements, either by hanging on them or falling on them. Most will hold, but some may not. But this is the game we choose to play...
Check out Doug Phillips article under "Better Beta" (beneath Pete Takeda's interview):
http://www.gripped.com/...demag/005/index.html
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caughtinside
Aug 28, 2007, 7:25 PM
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musicman1586 wrote: Upperlimits wrote: I like to push myself hard. I find I like to get up Trad climbs where I'm out of gas at some point and need to take a rest on my gear. Do you consider this a No-no? I can climb easier routes all day but I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. By resting on my gear some on a tough climb I feel like I progress faster. What say you? I won't get into the stylistic side of things, because that's all in how you approach and feel about climbing ethics and what have you. However if you rest on gear, do not claim that you've made an ascent of that route. To some it is bad style, to others it is more than appropriate, but to anyone you have not made a successful ascent of that route, and so long as at the end of the day you still consider it a project for yourself , then all is well. Oh, and obviously, if you don't think the gear will really hold to begin with, I wouldn't suggest resting on it
just semantics here, but you can still say you did the route, you just can't say you did it clean. I've done plenty of climbs where I took a fall or took on a piece and finished, and I tell people I've done them. It's not like I was never there!
And depending on the context, I'll tell them I dogged it or took a fall too. But I don't trot out the full scoop on what actually happened on the climb unless context warrants it.
If it's a good climb, I may go back and try to get it clean, maybe not. If it's a rotten climb, that's probably the end of it. Don't really give a hoot what people think of as good or bad style.
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musicman1586
Aug 28, 2007, 7:35 PM
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caughtinside wrote: just semantics here, but you can still say you did the route, you just can't say you did it clean. I've done plenty of climbs where I took a fall or took on a piece and finished, and I tell people I've done them. It's not like I was never there! And depending on the context, I'll tell them I dogged it or took a fall too. But I don't trot out the full scoop on what actually happened on the climb unless context warrants it. If it's a good climb, I may go back and try to get it clean, maybe not. If it's a rotten climb, that's probably the end of it. Don't really give a hoot what people think of as good or bad style.
Were talking on the same thing here, which is what I mean by successful ascent. More or less it isn't going on your ticklist or 8a scorecard yet 
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dingus
Aug 28, 2007, 7:42 PM
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8flood8 wrote: i'm confused by your statement
Just disregard... it won't be an issue in your neck of the woods.
DMT
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8flood8
Aug 28, 2007, 7:44 PM
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ok... but one question...
did you break your leg?
i finally understood it i think hehe
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