|
overlord
Sep 6, 2007, 8:01 PM
Post #101 of 117
(1756 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
bent_gate wrote: It's a bit like building a road alongside the Appalachian Trail, and saying, "If you don't like it, then you don't have to walk on it, just stay on your trail" Do you like hiking trails with a road next to it, even if it doesn't get that much traffic?
ditto that.
on the same note... if you dont like the route, you dont need to climb it, much less bolt it and destroy someone elses experience.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Sep 6, 2007, 8:04 PM
Post #102 of 117
(1752 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I've never seen this route you're talking about. I've never heard anything about it. I can't say anything relative to the case.
The other day I was hanging out at the local sport crag. There's a nice 5.8 warm up everyone does. Sure it's called anything from 10a to 10d depending on the source, still it doesn't make it a bad 5.8. Anyway, it's a bolted crack. Now I don't mean it would go on tricky gear if you're strong enough to solo the route, I mean you could take three #2 camalots, a #3 camalot, and a #4 camalot and sew it up closer than the bolts. Or a single set of nuts would get it done equally well. It's a bolted crack with lots of different gear options.
Big deal, it's a 5.8. Well, maybe if you climb everything but the crack it earns that 10a rating.
I digress. I was sitting on the ground talking with a friend about this bolted crack. Neither of us supported its bolts, but neither of us cared enough to do anything about it. Complacent, sure we were.
Conversation drifted to the other crack lines on the wall. The one above the 5.8 (probably mid 11) is sporting a bunch of new bolts. The two best and most memorable cracks in the area are still metal free. We were discussing the standard. If those two excellent (and much harder) crack lines got bolted, surely it would fall on the community to repair them. But we've got a not so excellent overgraded warm-up yet we can't muster the energy for removal of the bolts.
Still, I don't know why I care on something hard enough to really challenge me, yet I don't care about a similar route at a much easier grade.
Funny thing, the whole conversation was overheard by another person at the area. First, he got pissy when we referred to the 10d as 5.8. Next he got even more pissy when we used the term "deserved to chop". This wasn't some young gym rat either, he was probably 35-40, pulled 12a, and had probably been climbing at least 5 years. I rephrased for him and told him that "deserved the chop" was less correct than "worthy of repair". He stormed off.
I've placed bolts that would piss me off if they were removed. I've placed others that sort of nag me as to their need. I know both sides.
Where's your level? I don't know. I know mine and I know how I arrived there.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Sep 6, 2007, 8:45 PM
Post #103 of 117
(1730 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Angry, have you done I Claudius at Shelf Road? Fits your description, aside from being a little harder. Yet I have no problem with the bolts on it. Why not? 1 - I'm not from the area, and 2 - when in Rome.
It's a sport crag, knowmsayn?
GO
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Sep 6, 2007, 9:02 PM
Post #104 of 117
(1718 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Well, it's not the route or area I was describing but close enough.
The area in question isn't my area either. I guess I live there now but feel far from local.
I get the when in rome statement. I too go by it. I wonder why. Is a destructive practice condonned any less destructive?
Seriously, I don't think I could have handled Rome, all the totally straight gay sex, the vomitorians, and trying to keep stains out of a white toga. I think my mantra would have been "When in Rome get freaked out by all the weird shit and leave never to return again" But I'm no history buff, maybe it wasn't so bad.
|
|
|
|
|
drb1215
Sep 6, 2007, 9:53 PM
Post #105 of 117
(1697 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2007
Posts: 3
|
builttospill wrote: Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand.
The route in question and bolts that were chopped is a 30 ft high top rope climb. Not a bolt line next to a perfect hand crack. I can't believe all this holier than thou crap you are spewing about the "fear" of a climb! Ignoring a bolt is very simple. it's a friggin choice!! If you see a bolt next to a natural placement do you use the bolt? If so, why?
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Sep 6, 2007, 10:30 PM
Post #106 of 117
(1679 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
drb1215 wrote: builttospill wrote: Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand. The route in question and bolts that were chopped is a 30 ft high top rope climb. Not a bolt line next to a perfect hand crack. I can't believe all this holier than thou crap you are spewing about the "fear" of a climb! Ignoring a bolt is very simple. it's a friggin choice!! If you see a bolt next to a natural placement do you use the bolt? If so, why?
Quit running around screaming your blind when the only problem is your eyes are shut.
Go back and read what he was talking about.
*hint* *hint* it wasn't the route, it was the idea.
DOH
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Sep 6, 2007, 10:44 PM
Post #107 of 117
(1671 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
drb1215 wrote: builttospill wrote: Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand. The route in question and bolts that were chopped is a 30 ft high top rope climb. Not a bolt line next to a perfect hand crack. I can't believe all this holier than thou crap you are spewing about the "fear" of a climb! Ignoring a bolt is very simple. it's a friggin choice!! If you see a bolt next to a natural placement do you use the bolt? If so, why?
Dude, it's alright, I think the bolts are fine in your case. I addressed my post to you because you made the point that people should just ignore bolts. In your particular case wherever you were (I can't even recall), that feeling is fine, especially on toprope anchors. But please don't bring that mentality to crags that are bigger than 30 feet tall, in legitimate major climbing areas. That was my point.
I think you should replace your bolts if you have the time and money to do so, but was merely cautioning against using that logic in other situations.
And by the way, it's a choice not to clip the bolt, but I can't ever pretend it's not there. Did the last few posts just go completely over your head?
Perhaps a reading comprehension or IQ test should be mandatory for the bolting permits at places like Castle Rocks?  Goddamn.
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Sep 6, 2007, 10:49 PM
Post #108 of 117
(1663 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
I think that Backpacker Magazine made an interesting point in their last issue that relates to this. I try to refrain from reading such rags, but sometimes I can't help myself.
They said something along the lines of "in the future, all or most wilderness experiences will be contrived and the level of wilderness that we experience will be a result of personal choices about how we get there and how we spend our time there." I read that to mean......that sometimes contrived difficulties have to be added to the effort or to the objective to make sure that we still enjoy some challenge and some wilderness in our time spent in the woods.
I don't mean chipping off bucket holds, or putting downed logs across trails to make it more difficult. But I do think it's a valid point. I take it to mean relying less on bolts, less on pitons, taking a bit less gear, not driving the jeep as far as we possibly can up the dirt road on our backpacking trip, not taking a SAT phone on my next backcountry excursion, etc.
Sure, if I'm in Alaska, I'll take a radio, but it's still a point in my mind. What's the point of being out there if success is always imminent and assumed? Perhaps if you just love the movement that's fine, but not me.
|
|
|
|
|
drb1215
Sep 6, 2007, 11:32 PM
Post #109 of 117
(1651 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2007
Posts: 3
|
Ok...signals have been crossed. My comment about ignoring bolts, was just that...you don't have to use them. it had nothing to do with whether or not the bolt should be there. I in no way what-so-ever feel that it's ok to place bolts where natural protection is available, be it in the wilderness or at a popular trad cliff.
Moose_Droppings - My comments were made due to way to much being read into a simple statement, and the fact that it was direct at what I said..not that builttospill was making a general statement. Don't read more into something that isn't there. DOH
(This post was edited by drb1215 on Sep 7, 2007, 12:22 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
wmfork
Sep 7, 2007, 3:50 AM
Post #110 of 117
(1605 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 4, 2006
Posts: 348
|
angry wrote: Big deal, it's a 5.8. Well, maybe if you climb everything but the crack it earns that 10a rating.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Sep 7, 2007, 4:52 AM
Post #111 of 117
(1585 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
drb1215 wrote: My comments were made due to way to much being read into a simple statement,
Yea, I already covered that.
I wrote: Go back and read what he was talking about.
Also;
drb1215 wrote: ..not that builttospill was making a general statement.
Obviously you didn't do this;
I wrote: Go back and read what he was talking about. |
|
|
|
|
talnlnky
Sep 7, 2007, 10:55 AM
Post #112 of 117
(1561 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2006
Posts: 80
|
builttospill wrote: drb1215 wrote: I'm slightly miffed by the actions of a chopper. I feel strongly that if you don't like bolts, don't use them. If you are into chopping, please stand up and tell people who you are and why you feel that you need to destroy something that is meant to help others. Just magically clap your hands and pretend that they're not there.
Shouldn't be that hard, we're taking 3sq inches...
DAMN THATS HUGE.
(This post was edited by talnlnky on Sep 7, 2007, 11:06 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
talnlnky
Sep 7, 2007, 11:03 AM
Post #113 of 117
(1560 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2006
Posts: 80
|
moose_droppings wrote: drb1215 wrote: builttospill wrote: Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand. The route in question and bolts that were chopped is a 30 ft high top rope climb. Not a bolt line next to a perfect hand crack. I can't believe all this holier than thou crap you are spewing about the "fear" of a climb! Ignoring a bolt is very simple. it's a friggin choice!! If you see a bolt next to a natural placement do you use the bolt? If so, why? Quit running around screaming your blind when the only problem is your eyes are shut. Go back and read what he was talking about. *hint* *hint* it wasn't the route, it was the idea. DOH
its was the idea... meaning it was in his head. Its a mental thing.
Which... dun dun dun....(pause for suspense)
means its a problem with his head that he needs to work out.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Sep 7, 2007, 12:23 PM
Post #114 of 117
(1540 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
talnlnky wrote: moose_droppings wrote: drb1215 wrote: builttospill wrote: Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand. The route in question and bolts that were chopped is a 30 ft high top rope climb. Not a bolt line next to a perfect hand crack. I can't believe all this holier than thou crap you are spewing about the "fear" of a climb! Ignoring a bolt is very simple. it's a friggin choice!! If you see a bolt next to a natural placement do you use the bolt? If so, why? Quit running around screaming your blind when the only problem is your eyes are shut. Go back and read what he was talking about. *hint* *hint* it wasn't the route, it was the idea. DOH exactly! its was the idea... meaning it was in his head. Its a mental thing. Which... dun dun dun....(pause for suspense) means its a problem with his head that he needs to work out.
Great, clueless leading the blind.
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Sep 7, 2007, 7:36 PM
Post #116 of 117
(1465 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
It's alright moose, the subtleties are obviously lost on them.
I enjoyed your point cracklover.....and the analogy is spot on.
|
|
|
|
|
ja1484
Sep 7, 2007, 8:03 PM
Post #117 of 117
(1452 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 1935
|
I think I prefer the local NC ethics for bolting over pretty much anywhere else. They essentially go like this:
- Don't.
I'm only slightly kidding. To be more specific:
- Fixed belays/rappel stations are ok on routes that get a lot of traffic. It's preferable to beating up the natural vegetation, less intrusive, and with quality hardware (stainless 3/8" or better) is essentially a 1 time sacrifice.
- Bolts on routes should only be used if:
1) The route cannot be protected with natural pro
2) The unprotectable section is not simply a runout. Long runouts between protectable sections are simply something you better be ok with if you're coming here.
And I like that. You DON'T see bolted cracks, you DO see fixed belays where appropriate, and you DO see fixed TR bolts where appropriate, and you DON'T see many sport climbs or sport climbers. Bless the state.
NC still has a very strong ground up ethic, bolts are expected to be put in on the lead and only when absolutely necessary - which is much less often than you think. A lot of people think bolts are necessary for sections that can't be protected any other way. Not so - that's what R and X ratings are for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
