1) holds its own weight and the weight of the rope.
5) holds a sharp tug from the climber
2) holds body weight and a slow transition onto the piece is required
3) holds a top rope fall (body weight applied quickly)
4) holds a fall with a low fall factor
6) holds any fall

I think giving a sharp tug is useful in some cases, but it really doesn't properly test a piece. I think the best it does is shows that there might be enough friction for the device to do its thing. But it is on no way a substitution for a bounce test.

I always pull on Ballnuts. Half the time they pull out so I'll reset, retest, and then if it sticks I'll hope that it is stuck enough to work. The other time is when cams are sitting funky or there are a lot of crystals to break off and the piece might shift or the cam looks otherwise suspect. Sometimes the tug will seem to settle the cam into the placement.

On some routes body positioning can make it hard to impossible to really give it much of a yank.

I don't think it fair or accurate to say that tugging on a piece will or wont provide you with valuable info. 100% of the time. Some placements (especially passive) are so obviously solid that yanking on them is only going to serve the purpose of seating the gear and won't provide you with any new info. On the other hand I have had just about every kind of piece (passive and active) pull with just a swift yank, when I thought they would hold fine. For what its worth, having gear fail while testing it has caused me to nearly fall so there are risks associated with the behavior.

I yank on just about every placement. Some of them hard, to test placement quality and some gently, just to set them.

I have found it to be a useful practice and doing so can provide a climber with valuable information, while not doing so could leave you in the dark.

I tug on placements fairly often...to confirm that the direction of pull makes sense in relation to the piece.

As a friend from my childhood used to say, "knowing is half the battle".

You were friends with GI Joe?

I was thinking about it a bit more. There are many aid climbers that say they thought a piece was too tentative to tug on. So, they eased their weight on it. So, I am not alone in thinking that a tug can impart more force on a placement than slowly transitioning to it.

Definitely, parts of placing in aiding is a different ballgame when your piece only requires body weight or little more.

1) holds its own weight and the weight of the rope.
5) holds a sharp tug from the climber
2) holds body weight and a slow transition onto the piece is required
3) holds a top rope fall (body weight applied quickly)
4) holds a fall with a low fall factor
6) holds any fall

1) holds its own weight and the weight of the rope.
2) holds body weight and a slow transition onto the piece is required
5) holds a sharp tug from the climber
3) holds a top rope fall (body weight applied quickly)
4) holds a fall with a low fall factor
6) holds any fall

We might agree, but your wording makes me think I was unclear.

People in this thread keep saying this is the order for strength of placements:

The list above implies that even a small tug puts less force on a piece then a slow rock onto it. When a person doing aid avoids tugging, but eases their weight onto the piece anyways. They are expressing that the list is AT LEAST this:


To me, this makes sense. Impact forces can be very large. I can easily see someone putting a lot of force onto a placement with a few short jerks on the low elongation sling.

Independent on the exact placement in the above list, I think this is only reaffirming that tugs have some (if limited) use. I was really hoping to have some anti-tuggers responding.

Strange that some would place "hold's weight of rope" anywhere above "holds a sharp tug". I always give it a tug before i clip it.

Dangerous that one would be placing a piece to hold a TR fall and have anything less than a SERENE anchor.

Funny that "holds slow transition to body-weight" is even an answer in a "trad" forum. That one belongs in the aider's bag. Even if it's A0.

so, i guess my trad list would read more like:

1. Fits placement and seats well, responds in appropriate manner when given a sharp tug in directions of anticipated loading (down or out)
2. Successfully holds short, low FF falls. Rule: Upon being subjected to such a fall, the piece would be inspected and reset or backed up if necessary.
3. Successfully holds long, moderate FF falls. Same rules apply here as to #2
4. Fails the above requirements, resulting in a possible trip to the ER and a thorough reassessment of protection skills and motivations.

Other than that, what else is there?


Aiding is a whole 'nother story. If you really want to open that subject perhaps you should post your question to the "Big Walls and Aid" forum.

If you have a placement that you were able to make a solid tug on, are you more confident that the piece will hold a fall? Do you think the tug was a waste of time (even if you were placing from a ledge)?

Well, I guess that's two different things, really.

Generally, when trad climbing, if I've got little or no confidence that I'll be able to make a secure placement, then I'll not waste my time trying to make something work.

If, OTOH, I've cruxed out and experiencing that "oh fuck my last piece is waay down there and there's nothing here" feeling, I'll usually step back down to a good placement.

Continuing along this train of thought (and that piece waay down there is actually the last good piece of gear possible), if I don't feel up to pulling through the crux and getting to a placement, the prudent thing would be to BTFO! Will I always BTFO? Well, now it depends on the objective/subjective dangers of the potential fall I'm looking at.

If I'm not willing to take that fall, then there's no point in marginal gear which takes time+energy to place and may actually warp my perception of my safety margin.

Again, OTOH, if the fall is something I'm willing to take but would rather not if at all necessary, then sure, perhaps I'll place some marginal gear if that's all that presents itself, knowing full well the cost:benefit may be a toss-up.

For the general reader of the thread:
When do you feel a tug is needed, and how much do you feel that tug tells you about the piece holding a fall?

Sty, you seemed to say you tug every piece just after placing it. Is this true even in the above situation? If so, is it a good assumption on my part that you gain some reassurance that the piece will probably hold a fall?