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DaliLama
Nov 6, 2007, 5:19 PM
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So, I was climbing at the gym last night. I was warming up gradually like I always do: stretch, jug traverse, V1s, V2s, V4s. The first V7 I hop on - crimp under the cave - POP! This is the third time that I've popped a pulley this year, on 3 different pulleys. The first 2 were the A1 and A2 pulley in my left ring finger. This time it was the A1 in my right ring finger. Before last night there was no pain whatsoever in my right ring finger. I wasn't even crimping with full strength as I was still (somewhat) in my warm up phase. I'm beginning to lose faith in climbing. Am I doing something wrong? I don't over-train or over-climb closed grip crimps. Before last night I was doing open hand campus board training about once a week. Are my fingers just not meant for climbing? Unfortunately, this injury occurs a week before a planned trip to Hampi, India... any tips? Should I give up on climbing for good? I'm not much of a trad climber and enjoy the thrill of pushing my body on bouldering and sport climbing.
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shogun
Nov 6, 2007, 5:41 PM
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DaliLama wrote: So, I was climbing at the gym last night. I was warming up gradually like I always do: stretch, jug traverse, V1s, V2s, V4s. The first V7 I hop on - crimp under the cave - POP! This is the third time that I've popped a pulley this year, on 3 different pulleys. The first 2 were the A1 and A2 pulley in my left ring finger. This time it was the A1 in my right ring finger. Before last night there was no pain whatsoever in my right ring finger. I wasn't even crimping with full strength as I was still (somewhat) in my warm up phase. I'm beginning to lose faith in climbing. Am I doing something wrong? I don't over-train or over-climb closed grip crimps. Before last night I was doing open hand campus board training about once a week. Are my fingers just not meant for climbing? Unfortunately, this injury occurs a week before a planned trip to Hampi, India... any tips? Should I give up on climbing for good? I'm not much of a trad climber and enjoy the thrill of pushing my body on bouldering and sport climbing. i went through the past couple of years with the same pulley poppin' issues... i stopped bouldering and learn to climb cracks... no pulley problems since. i hate crimps and i'm a 5.6 climber, so ymmv. giving up on climbing is a bit drastic... rest and recoup, avoid crimps for the next year or so. find other ways to push your body climbing with out pushing it to the point of malfunction. hmmn... not much of a trad climber... forget all that... give up. -=g=-
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EPiCJAMES
Nov 6, 2007, 6:46 PM
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DaliLama wrote: So, I was climbing at the gym last night. I was warming up gradually like I always do: stretch, jug traverse, V1s, V2s, V4s. The first V7 I hop on - crimp under the cave - POP! This is the third time that I've popped a pulley this year, on 3 different pulleys. The first 2 were the A1 and A2 pulley in my left ring finger. This time it was the A1 in my right ring finger. Before last night there was no pain whatsoever in my right ring finger. I wasn't even crimping with full strength as I was still (somewhat) in my warm up phase. I'm beginning to lose faith in climbing. Am I doing something wrong? I don't over-train or over-climb closed grip crimps. Before last night I was doing open hand campus board training about once a week. Are my fingers just not meant for climbing? Unfortunately, this injury occurs a week before a planned trip to Hampi, India... any tips? Should I give up on climbing for good? I'm not much of a trad climber and enjoy the thrill of pushing my body on bouldering and sport climbing. how long have you been climbing? your body needs years to adapt. you also say you were still in your warm up phase, i'd stay off of the crimpers until you're fully warmed up. don't give up on climbing, just heal, and get back out there.
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esallen
Nov 6, 2007, 6:51 PM
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I feel your pain. I did the same thing recently. Very depressing. It was my fault, however, for not warming up and not stretching. Don't give up man. Just take it easy until you heal and then get back at it, but be super cautious. Spend even more time (like maybe an hour or more) to warm up and stretch. I think you may be right; most people's fingers are not meant for V7 crimping, but I've also heard that it can take like 6 or 7 years of consistent training to significantly strengthen tendons and pulleys. I don't really know though. Good luck.
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DaliLama
Nov 6, 2007, 6:54 PM
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Thanks for the tips. I've been climbing consistently for about 3-4 years. What is the general consensus on warming up before hopping on crimpers? Could improper warmup time have caused my injury? Like I said, there was no pain in my finger prior to last night's pop. I find this disturbing since the last 2 times there was soreness prior to the pop.
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tharlow
Nov 6, 2007, 7:04 PM
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Just examined by a specialist for a ruptured A2 pulley, his opinion is most of these injuries are due to wear and tear of climbing that eventually weakens the pulley, causing it to fail under what is usually a sub maximal load. This sounds like what happened with your injury, mine also. So I would say continue to warm up with easier climbs and stretching, and talk to a hand specialist/therapist about a program of strengthening the tendons while protecting the pulleys, maybe this will help prevent injuries. You could also do what I did, just climb crack baby! Good luck Thad
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aerili
Nov 6, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Forget the stretching prior to climbing. There is NO EVIDENCE THIS REDUCES INJURY, people. Besides, pulleys aren't attached to muscles, and I would theorize the last thing you want is lax pulleys anyhow. Now, stretching your finger flexors after or outside of your climbing time could be beneficial over the long term. Warming up, however, is key. Every individual is different, however, in terms of what makes for a "just right" warm up. For instance, your warm up routine sounds way too short for someone like myself, but its intensity and progression may have been just fine for you. You say you don't overtrain, but perhaps you have been (you may not overtrain in the standard sense, but every body is different in what it will tolerate and connective tissues don't possess the exact same properties or qualities across people). Anyway, I would also theorize you might have suffered this last rupture due to over-compensation with your right hand. The human body, esp. those of athletes, is a great compensator: because your left hand has suffered two injuries prior, it is quite feasible you unknowingly have been using your right to a greater extent to 'make up for' some lack with the left. This often results in injury eventually occuring in the 'good' side. If you haven't seen a hand specialist, you probably really should after three finger injuries. This type of problem isn't necessarily one I would say try treating on your own or just 'see what happens.' But yes, modification in your climbing routine or style may be required, although short term or long term I don't know. Getting some treatment, however, may mean getting back to climbing the way you enjoy most. http://opp.uoregon.edu/...topics/injuries.html http://www.climbinginjuries.com/Finger.htm P.S. Even if you recover fully, I would say generally stop working crimpy routes on plastic and this may end your pulley problems. I don't know the mechanism, but gym climbing seems to be more injurious to some people than outdoor climbing.
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zeke_sf
Nov 6, 2007, 8:30 PM
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aerili wrote: P.S. Even if you recover fully, I would say generally stop working crimpy routes on plastic and this may end your pulley problems. I don't know the mechanism, but gym climbing seems to be more injurious to some people than outdoor climbing. That's my modification. Seriously, don't get yourself [Addressing OP] hurt on the pink taped problem that's going to be re-set next week. Go out and hurt yourself on the problem set in stone and that will be there the rest of your life so you can wreak your revenge....I've also hurt myself and am still dealing with an injury incurred in the bouldering area of a gym. Personally, I've focused more on the trad side of things and pushed my leading grade from 5.8 to 5.10, so focus on what you can do. Just today I got spanked on face route I would have considered a warmup previously, so I know how you're going to feel. I think it's just too easy to overtrain at the gym so learn how to have easy and hard days. It's easy to get psyched on sending hard every time you are climbing, but that's just going to get you injured again. Good luck on your recovery!
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thaedge
Nov 6, 2007, 8:48 PM
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In general when you are having problems with tendons and ligaments (pulleys) it is not necessarily related to the action being done at the time. It is most likely due to minute tears that were already present in the tissue, probably from not enough recoup time. Tears and damage will add up and finally not be able to repair themselves. I'd put money on the fact that you were climbing too often and not allowing your ligaments to repair themselves. I would suggest a glucosamine/msm supplement and start taking more rest days after hard climbs. This is hardly an issue of warming up and an issue of not training properly.
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hopperhopper
Nov 6, 2007, 10:53 PM
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aerili wrote: Forget the stretching prior to climbing. There is NO EVIDENCE THIS REDUCES INJURY, people. Besides, pulleys aren't attached to muscles, and I would theorize the last thing you want is lax pulleys anyhow. Now, stretching your finger flexors after or outside of your climbing time could be beneficial over the long term. Warming up, however, is key. Every individual is different, however, in terms of what makes for a "just right" warm up. For instance, your warm up routine sounds way too short for someone like myself, but its intensity and progression may have been just fine for you. You say you don't overtrain, but perhaps you have been (you may not overtrain in the standard sense, but every body is different in what it will tolerate and connective tissues don't possess the exact same properties or qualities across people). Anyway, I would also theorize you might have suffered this last rupture due to over-compensation with your right hand. The human body, esp. those of athletes, is a great compensator: because your left hand has suffered two injuries prior, it is quite feasible you unknowingly have been using your right to a greater extent to 'make up for' some lack with the left. This often results in injury eventually occuring in the 'good' side. If you haven't seen a hand specialist, you probably really should after three finger injuries. This type of problem isn't necessarily one I would say try treating on your own or just 'see what happens.' But yes, modification in your climbing routine or style may be required, although short term or long term I don't know. Getting some treatment, however, may mean getting back to climbing the way you enjoy most. http://opp.uoregon.edu/...topics/injuries.html http://www.climbinginjuries.com/Finger.htm P.S. Even if you recover fully, I would say generally stop working crimpy routes on plastic and this may end your pulley problems. I don't know the mechanism, but gym climbing seems to be more injurious to some people than outdoor climbing. can you just stop contributing to threads that concern the human body (i.e. every thread in this section). nobody cares about your bachelor of arts in kinesiology or whatever degree the local community college decided to give you. with the exception of a couple common sense statements everything you say is ignorant. OP: sorry to hear about your fingers. lay off the crimps for a while and give those pulleys some time to chill out. work on slopers or real balancy moves, or do a bunch of easy laps for a while to build endurance. seeing a hand specialist to get some competent advice about specialized treatment would be good too.
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onceahardman
Nov 6, 2007, 11:02 PM
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i agree with aerili...no evidence that stretching will help. newer evidence (still inconclusive) seems to suggest INCREASED rates of failure of passive restraints with increased strecthing. (ie non-contractile, ligament rather than tendon.) do you tape? learn to tape really well, if done correctly, it can certainly help. one tape job won't last all day. for hard bouldering, you may need to re-tape every other problem. even quality tape stretches. years ago, i heard a story that henry barber went to the zoo to watch how monkeys climb. he learned that they NEVER crimp. they climb small holds with an open grip. and they CRANK hard. he trained his open grip really hard, and his legendary results speak for themselves. much less stress on the pulleys with an open grip.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Nov 6, 2007, 11:07 PM)
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angry
Nov 6, 2007, 11:21 PM
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I'm not going to give you any advice on injuries, injury prevention, or healing. Not a bit. That's not what struck me about your post. Are you a climber? Or are you someone who climbs? There's a big difference here, one finds a way, the other moves on. Neither one is right, just be clear what/who you are. A climber will find a way to climb, exiled in Omaha, with MS, a missing arm, and blind, he's going to find some type of ascent. I guess what I'm saying is that you aren't given a choice of whether you can quit climbing or not. You're either a lifer or not. I don't know you, figure out who you are, what your priorities are, and then come up with a course of action. Good luck with any choice you make.
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lofstromc
Nov 6, 2007, 11:35 PM
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Loose 10 pounds and rest more often. Start doing something other than bouldering plastic 3 -4 times a week. Work on long endurance one day, power the next session and so on. But definitely loose 10 pounds.
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drjghl
Nov 7, 2007, 12:04 AM
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Interesting. I would suggest thinking outside the box. I generally consider my index and middle finger to be the two strongest fingers for grasping/crimping. Oddly though, you tore the tendon sheaths BILATERALLY on your ring fingers. Hmmm. And I don't think it was from using them more than your other fingers or bad form. I don't know what is wrong but something is not right. Since I don't hear of your particular injury commonly amongst a shitload of climbers doing exactly what you are doing, I would guess that you have some type of abnormal connective tissue that is weaker than the average person that contributed to your ruptures. BTW, do you have a job or hobby where you put abnormal stress on your ringfinger? Anyways, that combined with the levels of stress you are putting on the tendon sheaths/pulleys probably resulted in your ruptures. Pure speculation on my part. As to what to do, I totally agree with aerili (a source of sound advice) regarding stretching, warming up, and risks from compensatory behavior. I don't think you need to stop sport climbing but consider reducing your maximal levels of stress and consider more rest between climbing to allow healing as others pointed out. I can't get my ass up a V1 and campusing would blow my fingers out immediately. But at my best I could onsight 10c trad. You may not realize the tremendous stress you are putting on your tendons. I'm curious what your hand surgeon has to say about your injuries.
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dudemanbu
Nov 7, 2007, 12:09 AM
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lofstromc wrote: Loose 10 pounds and rest more often. Start doing something other than bouldering plastic 3 -4 times a week. Work on long endurance one day, power the next session and so on. This is good advice. If you're bouldering 3-4 times a week, you're overtraining.. especially on plastic, and especially if you're climbing at or near your limit more than one of those days.
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onceahardman
Nov 7, 2007, 12:19 AM
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yeah, i second (or third) the idea of more rest. remember, while you are training you are NOT adding muscle (or tendon, ligament, bone, etc.) at that time. you gain those things during REST periods between training. adequate rest, nutrition and water intake are all parts of the strength equation. losing weight may be appropriate, but for all i know, you might be too skinny and not take in enough protein. advice to lose weight, sight unseen, is kind of presumptive.
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stevej
Nov 7, 2007, 12:34 AM
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angry wrote: I'm not going to give you any advice on injuries, injury prevention, or healing. Not a bit. That's not what struck me about your post. Are you a climber? Or are you someone who climbs? There's a big difference here, one finds a way, the other moves on. Neither one is right, just be clear what/who you are. A climber will find a way to climb, exiled in Omaha, with MS, a missing arm, and blind, he's going to find some type of ascent. I guess what I'm saying is that you aren't given a choice of whether you can quit climbing or not. You're either a lifer or not. I don't know you, figure out who you are, what your priorities are, and then come up with a course of action. Good luck with any choice you make. Way to tiptoe through the tulips with that guy... Why not just tell him to quit and play golf instead, its what we're all thinking anyway.
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whoa
Nov 7, 2007, 12:59 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: Just today I got spanked on face route I would have considered a warmup previously, so I know how you're going to feel. the white 10d with the dyno? :-)
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angry
Nov 7, 2007, 1:14 AM
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I tiptoed through your mom's two lips
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flint
Nov 7, 2007, 1:51 AM
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angry wrote: I tiptoed through your mom's two lips Angry is always on the ball... j-
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zeke_sf
Nov 7, 2007, 2:26 AM
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whoa wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Just today I got spanked on face route I would have considered a warmup previously, so I know how you're going to feel. the white 10d with the dyno? :-) Hahaha, yeah, you know where I was. What, Rawhide? Haven't done that. No, this climb is much stupider. You still going there?
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cameltoe
Nov 7, 2007, 3:53 PM
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As already mentioned I am not sure you're a real lifer.. particularly if you eschew the trad.. but some thoughts on tendons.. Rule 1: don't stretch Hard before climbing it weakens the tendons, Warming up is a must, very light streteching -ok. Rule 2 : stretch good after climbing. this is where you gain falexibility and strength.. Rule 3: when injured rest it properly... at least two weeks more of complete rest after the pain goes away, then only open-handers/ soft climbing for 1-2 months (probably tape supported for the first month.. then back to training - with a gentle build up.. lhf BB DISCLAIMER - this is all in IMHO... no academic proof, no guarantees, just what works for me and has kept me injury free for a long time... Oh and I quit bouldering cause thats where I always get injured...(except when i fall into trees), but from your tone that s not your cup of tea...
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DaliLama
Nov 7, 2007, 4:13 PM
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Ok, so first off, please don't tell me that "I'm not a lifer" because I prefer sport and boulder to trad. That's just bullshit. Now that that's out of the way: I've heard the whole "lose 10 lbs before you get back" line before, but it's pretty hard to lose 10 lbs when I only weigh 140-150lbs. Has there been much medical research on what nutrients are needed to promote healthy ligaments? I'm wondering if I have a deficiency in say Magnesium or something. Also, has anyone heard of any medical research on how strong the pulley becomes after growing back? Not how strong can you crimp after coming back but is the physical pulley weaker, as strong as, or stronger then when you started. For example, I had ACL repair when I was in high school and after recovering (ACL replaced with graft tissue) the new ligament was supposedly stronger then when I started.
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