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galosher
Nov 21, 2007, 4:59 PM
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hi,
i am buying myself a rack for the holidays (so excited!), and i have this question:
what are the advantages/disadvantages of dyneema (or dynex or spectra) vs nylon? what do you prefer and why?
as extra credit, can anyone tell me why it's so hard to order specific colored runners? the color option always seems to be "assorted," but i like my different lengths to be different colors so i know at a glance what i'm clipping.
thanks!
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coastal_climber
Nov 21, 2007, 6:21 PM
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Dyneema is more cut & UV resistant, at a higher price.
>Cam
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Uncia
Nov 21, 2007, 6:54 PM
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If you buy the same brand slings out of dyneema. Most companies have a specific color per length. The only time this may get screwed up is when you mix and match companies.
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climbingaggie03
Nov 21, 2007, 7:02 PM
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I prefer spectra slings, specifically the mammut runners
Spectra is stronger, lighter, and doesn't absorb water like nylon.
The disadvantages of spectra slings are they are more easily cut when they are girth hitched. They also don't work for friction hitches like the kleimheist.
as far as colors go, I dunno why stores won't let you specify which color you get, but it's probably becasue it's a PITA for them to sort out and keep track of how many of each color/length combination they have. If you get the mammut slings though, they only come in one color for each size so you don't have to worry about it.
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gosharks
Nov 21, 2007, 7:14 PM
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Spectra is the same thing as Dyneema.
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diebetes
Nov 21, 2007, 7:15 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: Spectra is stronger, lighter, and doesn't absorb water like nylon.
Um... it's strength is only significant under a static load. It's not nearly as strong when a "shock load" is applied to it. It does not stretch like Nylon, which some will say is a disadvantage, while others would say that the minimal stretch in a nylon runner is not relevant.
I prefer nylon. It handles better and is more versatile. The weight savings of spectra (etc) is not enough for me to want to switch. Also, some of those slings are soooo skinny, it's not that reassuring.
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DaniW
Nov 21, 2007, 7:30 PM
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in my opinion, the only advantage that dynema has over nylon is the weight(which is important). i'll add that nylon is much much more durable then dynema. ever wondered why Black Diamond are the only company(as far as i know) that slings their cams with nylon and not dynema?(and i don't think it's because nylon is cheaper, as their cams are the most expensive in the market...)
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jermanimal
Nov 21, 2007, 7:59 PM
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Nylon is a little stiffer then Dyneema or Dynex. In the shorter lengths the Nylon doesn't spin as much on the top, which I think is an advantage of the Petzl design. This is a personal preference thing as clearly the marketed is moving towards the Dyneema across the board, Black Diamond is almost totally out of the market for Nylon. They are weigh half as much, half the bulk, more cut/UV proof and cost twice as much.
Technically Dyneema and Spectra are different, but for all intents and purposes they are the same. The technical specs are different in manufacturing, but seems they are very, very similar and only a brand name war. Honeywell vs Royal DSM.
The Dyneema...looking online more, it not suitable for ropes and if used in cord...or slings, you should not use friction knots, because they slip...if needed use a triple fishermans. Don't water knot.
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gunkiemike
Nov 21, 2007, 10:20 PM
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DaniW wrote: ever wondered why Black Diamond are the only company(as far as i know) that slings their cams with nylon and not dynema?(and i don't think it's because nylon is cheaper, as their cams are the most expensive in the market...)
If all the cams out there come with Spectra/Dyneema slings EXCEPT BD, then I'm wondering if maybe BD just hasn't figured out yet that the other material is superior. Or, do they know some dark secret - as you suggest vis-a-vis durability - that the others don't get. That seems quite unlikely to me.
Another possibility - for cam slings, either material gets the job done just fine.
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mojede
Nov 21, 2007, 10:28 PM
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I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned that high-tenacity fiber webbing has a lower melting point than nylon. This is significant under friction situations that may or may not arise. Ideally, dyneema should never be girth-hitch under high-load scenarios.
Also, it must never be water-knot tied, as it does not hold the knot (too slippery)
That said, dyneema/spectra slings when bar-tacked are light, strong, and awesome--just remember to carry a few nylon ones too.
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penguinator
Nov 21, 2007, 11:44 PM
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I have both. I use dyneema to extend pieces over edges, or when building an anchor over an edge. I use nylon when building most of my anchors, because you want something dynamic.
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knudenoggin
Nov 22, 2007, 12:29 AM
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At the Black Diamond site, Kolin's Corner has some testing that might
help you decide.
--cf http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#030907
As for the assertions re comparative strength, well, read Kolin's test.
In practice, these things don't break, so one could call them equal.
As for "high tenacity fibres" and melting, there are those that don't
melt, though climbing webbing has yet to use them.
*kN*
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andypro
Nov 22, 2007, 1:48 AM
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knudenoggin wrote: As for "high tenacity fibres" and melting, there are those that don't melt, though climbing webbing has yet to use them.
As I understand it (and feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but please provide references) the "high temperature" fibers are no good for a constantly moving applications. The individual fibers of kevlar break with the repetitive stress that they would see in a climbing application, ultimately weakening the structure more and more over time.
--Andy P
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ja1484
Nov 22, 2007, 2:09 AM
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I'll break it down for you chart style:
Nylon:
- Better resistance to shock loads
- Grippier (can be used in friction knots)
- Higher melting point (friction knots, again)
- Inexpensive
- More UV resistant
- Less abrasion resistant
- Heavier/Bulkier
- Absorbs water + loses strength when wet
Dyneema:
- Horrible with shock loading
- Slippery (no friction knots)
- Lower melting point (friction knots)
- Expensive
- Less UV resistant
- More abrasion resistant
- Lighter/Less Bulky
- More moisture resistant
Overall, I prefer Nylon most of the time. It's more versatile (and the ability to improvise is a trad climber's bread and butter), less expensive, and seems to hold up much better to "shock" loads (high peak force over short period of time - the type of loading seen most often in climbing where any kind of leading is involved).
That said, Dyneema is excellent for things like quickdraw dogbones or alpine/high altitude ascents where weight/bulk + moisture resistance is at a premium.
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ja1484
Nov 22, 2007, 2:12 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: If all the cams out there come with Spectra/Dyneema slings EXCEPT BD, then I'm wondering if maybe BD just hasn't figured out yet that the other material is superior. Or, do they know some dark secret - as you suggest vis-a-vis durability - that the others don't get. That seems quite unlikely to me. Another possibility - for cam slings, either material gets the job done just fine.
Yeah, and C4s are already expensive enough 
Some companies (I'm esp. thinking Metolius here) are using "hybrid" weaves that are a shared percentage nylon and dyneema. Seems to be a nice meet-in-the-middle idea.
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angry
Nov 22, 2007, 2:28 AM
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When the fancy 8mm Mammut slings came out, I got a stack of them because they seemed so sweet. As I lose more and wear more out, I will not replace them with the same. Various reasons below.
1. Durability. After 2 years these slings are worked. I've even seen tests to show that they can drop to as low as 15kn in a couple years. The sling in that test didn't even look as bad as mine.
2. Mysterious girth hitch cutting. We've all seen the photo's of the Vermin's sling that "broke". It sure looked cut, I don't know what that's all about but it's enough to give me pause.
3. Thievability. Everyone and their grandmother has these slings. So many of them have walked off. I've left exactly 2 behind, yet I'm like 8 shy. They are too hard to keep separate because everyone has them.
4. Prussicking. I had to ascend a rope the other day, we only had one sling that wasn't dyneema. We would have had (even more) issues had we not had a nylon sling.
For me, I'm going to be using the thinnish BD slings. They are probably half and half, nice and durable, way less bulky than plain nylon, and cost just as much as a dyneema. The small amount of extra weight is worth it.
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diebetes
Nov 22, 2007, 2:55 AM
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ja1484 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: If all the cams out there come with Spectra/Dyneema slings EXCEPT BD, then I'm wondering if maybe BD just hasn't figured out yet that the other material is superior. Or, do they know some dark secret - as you suggest vis-a-vis durability - that the others don't get. That seems quite unlikely to me. Another possibility - for cam slings, either material gets the job done just fine. Yeah, and C4s are already expensive enough Some companies (I'm esp. thinking Metolius here) are using "hybrid" weaves that are a shared percentage nylon and dyneema. Seems to be a nice meet-in-the-middle idea.
As I understand it, all dynex etc runners have nylon in them. The reason for this is that dynex etc can not be dyed, where as nylon obviously can be. Can anyone verify this?
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ja1484
Nov 22, 2007, 2:56 AM
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angry wrote: For me, I'm going to be using the thinnish BD slings. They are probably half and half, nice and durable, way less bulky than plain nylon, and cost just as much as a dyneema. The small amount of extra weight is worth it.
Are you talking about BD's new 10mm Dynex? AFAIK Dynex is their trade name for spectra/dyneema.
I still run with 9/16ths nylon for most of my rack, although I do like the skinny dyneema whoojawhatsits for shoulder length slings.
diebetes wrote: ja1484 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: If all the cams out there come with Spectra/Dyneema slings EXCEPT BD, then I'm wondering if maybe BD just hasn't figured out yet that the other material is superior. Or, do they know some dark secret - as you suggest vis-a-vis durability - that the others don't get. That seems quite unlikely to me. Another possibility - for cam slings, either material gets the job done just fine. Yeah, and C4s are already expensive enough Some companies (I'm esp. thinking Metolius here) are using "hybrid" weaves that are a shared percentage nylon and dyneema. Seems to be a nice meet-in-the-middle idea. As I understand it, all dynex etc runners have nylon in them. The reason for this is that dynex etc can not be dyed, where as nylon obviously can be. Can anyone verify this?
Interesting. Would be interested in the verdict on this asswell.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 22, 2007, 2:57 AM)
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nuts_bolts
Nov 22, 2007, 2:58 AM
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Angry (and OP) you might want to check these out:
As mentioned above, Metolius has a hybrid going on that, so far, is my favorite sling to date. And I believe they're a bit thiner than the BD nylons.
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angry
Nov 22, 2007, 3:15 AM
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I wonder if they'd let me tie a prussick onto the harness hanging rope in the store and see if they stick?
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studclimber
Nov 22, 2007, 5:13 AM
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I use both. I use the mammut ones because they are light, strong, and they don't absorb water as easily. That said, you can adjust the length of a nylon runner, and they cost a huge amount less than spectra. I like them for v-threads, or any anchor or rappel setup really, becuase they are so easily adjusted. just my two cents. hope it helps.
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flint
Nov 22, 2007, 5:50 AM
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angry wrote: 2. Mysterious girth hitch cutting. We've all seen the photo's of the Vermin's sling that "broke". It sure looked cut, I don't know what that's all about but it's enough to give me pause.
I too use the mammut slings for various purposes, no frictions knots... But I have used them to sling natural features, normally with a girth hitch. Is this not recommended? I too do not like the idea of my pro cutting.
I will probably buy metolius combo slings or just nylon when I do it all again...
j-
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knudenoggin
Nov 23, 2007, 6:20 PM
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flint wrote: angry wrote: 2. Mysterious girth hitch cutting. We've all seen the photo's of the Vermin's sling that "broke". It sure looked cut, I don't know what that's all about but it's enough to give me pause. I too use the mammut slings for various purposes, no frictions knots... But I have used them to sling natural features, normally with a girth hitch. Is this not recommended? I too do not like the idea of my pro cutting.
It's funny how so many recall the Girth Hitch scare, and so few the result
of careful analysis of it by Mammut. As noted, yes, is sure did look CUT,
and that's Mammut's conclusion--where "cut" means "by something very
sharp, not the sling itself".
Cf. http://www.its.caltech.edu/~alpine/mammut.html
http://www.mammut.ch/...%20Sling%20Break.pdf
--resp., without, with, images (photos).
So, that scare ought to be redirected to Who Cut JSherman's Sling?
*kN*
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ericbeyeler
Nov 26, 2007, 2:16 PM
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knudenoggin wrote: At the Black Diamond site, Kolin's Corner has some testing that might help you decide. --cf http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#030907 As for the assertions re comparative strength, well, read Kolin's test. In practice, these things don't break, so one could call them equal. As for "high tenacity fibres" and melting, there are those that don't melt, though climbing webbing has yet to use them. *kN*
Here's a link to another set of experiments:
http://www.xmission.com/...gh_Strength_Cord.pdf
The big difference is in how it responds over time to flexing (i.e. knots).
I use mammut dyneema slings for "trad draws" and nylon cord for anchors.
Eric
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tomcat
Nov 26, 2007, 2:48 PM
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Like Angry,my Dyneema runners are being replaced by the new wonder material,Nylon.
A friend who manufacturers slings for fifteen years warned me specifically not to knot any Spectra slings,these will pull apart at very low loads,so if like me you climb in places where you end up modifying/maintaining or updating rap anchors,Spectra sux.
Dyneema is not good unless it's a part of a dynamic system.I have read a drop test report using 100kg dropped 8 inches,statically connected that snapped the runner.No problem with a rope in the mix,but possibly deadly as a direct clip while rapping with a pack on.
Mammut had those Dyneemas out for a couple years,now they are offering a nylon sling.BD is ahead of the curve staying with nylon.
Dyneema slings suck if you deploy them full length,they are really small over the head for the second.Often touted for alpine routes,try rapping an alpine route that needs some alpine anchor construction.Link a few,not knottable,8.95 a piece slings together to girth a big feature....yikes.
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