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pwscottiv
Nov 21, 2007, 5:09 AM
Post #26 of 48
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rgold wrote: But it is true that the OP has opted for 60m of cord in the second's pack, that's what his question is about, and recommending a ``better way'' isn't responding to the question, its changing it to one you prefer to answer. Exactly.
rgold wrote: There's no way I'd ever carry a 5.5mm 60m cord in the second's pack for rappelling Why so? Most of the load and friction is on the 10.5mm line. Has anyone come to the conclusion that it's an inefficient/unsafe system? What do you use?
rgold wrote: The OP isn't thinking about packs that big, he's talking about the BD Magnum, a 16L pack the same size as the Bullet. If the Bullet is really too small, the Cilogear 20L sounds like the best option to me. (You can add compression straps to tamp it down too.) Yeah, the 30L was sounding a bit large for what I want to do. I'm thinking maybe I should lead with my water in a Camelback that has enough space to hold my headlamp and possibly a shell on the outside, and then get something like the 20L for my second to carry the tech cord, route book, shoes, and her stuff.
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rgold
Nov 21, 2007, 4:02 PM
Post #27 of 48
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pwscottiv wrote: rgold wrote: There's no way I'd ever carry a 5.5mm 60m cord in the second's pack for rappelling Why so? Most of the load and friction is on the 10.5mm line. Has anyone come to the conclusion that it's an inefficient/unsafe system? What do you use? Ok, you did ask, so please don't blame me for OT ranting...here are a few things that occur to me: 1. The difference in slip rates is a very serious problem solved by rigging the rappel so that the climbing rope passes through the rap rings and the joining knot jams against the rap rings, preventing the climbing rope from being pulled. This means the rappel must be pulled with the 5.5mm cord. This will be a very nasty experience with wet ropes and a hard-to-pull rappel. 2. Speaking of hard-to-pull rappels, the knot can actually jam in the rings. 3. A 5.5mm rope can tangle horrendously, and serious amounts of time can be consumed undoing the messes. Not good when the sun is setting. 4. If the rappel hangs irretreviably after one end is up and out of reach, you are left with the option of either prussiking on 5.5mm cord (of course, not being sure whether the rope will hold---this would be very dicey in any case, but it certainly has been done), leading back up on the 5.5mm rope using the ``inchworm'' technique on the accumulated slack, or cutting off whatever 5.5mm cord you have and using that for the rest of the descent. In all cases, you have to do your business on a 5.5mm static line. Frightening. 5. You are essentially doing single-strand rappels. Forgetting to rig your descending devices appropriately (double biners?) could lead to a very rapid descent. 6. Putting a full-length rope in the second's pack is a waste of resources. There are all kinds of uses for such a rope during the ascent if it is running from leader to second. In my opinion, the smallest line one should consider for a trail line is 7mm. Tangling with it is plenty bad enough. As for what I do, if the climb is primarily a free climb (no jumaring), then I prefer half ropes for their incredible versatility and extra safety margin. However, there is a weight penalty, which perhaps could be offset by paring down that 30 pound rack!
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jjanowia
Nov 21, 2007, 5:21 PM
Post #28 of 48
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I've handled the Cilogear 20L, and I don't think you could fit anything else in there if you put in 2 pairs of appraoch shoes - that would max it out. The impression I have is that it was designed originally to haul a hydration bladder, some food, and a belay jacket. Of course, it is super tiny, so shoes on the harness could work with this as well. Anyway, if you definitely are wedded to your system as described (shoes + rap cord), 20L will likely not meet your needs as described. Think of the Cilogear 20L more as a hydration pack on roids without all of the BS features you don't want/need rather than as being bigger like a backpack.
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billcoe_
Nov 21, 2007, 6:27 PM
Post #29 of 48
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I'm curious about the 5mm tech cord for rapping too. I've never thought of it, but could see it being a valuable and worthwhile technique. Adding to Rgolds list: doing many long raps and having to rethread- restack the rope is one more reason it would suck as that takes more time to do. Because you always want the large diameter cord in the ring. In a 14 rap route, like from the Oasis, that might be the difference between rapping in the dark-sleeping on a ledge or drinking beer in the mt room. I was using the Metolius Monsters double/twins in Vegas last week and at 7.8mil diameter and 38grams a meter, they may be lighter - and probably a better solution for what you want to do...long routes. But you already have the tech cord of course. You've already recieved good pack advise. Interesting.
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norushnomore
Nov 21, 2007, 9:20 PM
Post #30 of 48
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I have used 5 mil cord for a few years now. It works rather nice: Light, about 4lb for 200 feet Fits in my camelback (no need for a bulky backpack or trailing from the leader) It is very stiff and as a result hardly tangles at all, in fact even less then the main line. You pull it with the belay device I don't use jam knot instead I rap on the main line and then lock cord in place so second can rappel. This way you don't need to re-thread and don't have problem of the stuck knot But lately, I have been using a variation that I think works even better: long 70 or 80m rope and 60' or 30’ of tech cord. You do uneven arm raps on occasional pitches that happen to be longer then 140 feet. In this case knot is only 30-40 feet away from you, easy to make sure it will not get stuck.
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pwscottiv
Nov 22, 2007, 2:09 AM
Post #31 of 48
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rgold wrote: Ok, you did ask, so please don't blame me for OT ranting...here are a few things that occur to me: No problem at all. I definitely agree with some of your concerns, but it really didn't take all that much effort to develop an safe and efficient system...
rgold wrote: 1. The difference in slip rates is a very serious problem solved by rigging the rappel so that the climbing rope passes through the rap rings and the joining knot jams against the rap rings, preventing the climbing rope from being pulled. This means the rappel must be pulled with the 5.5mm cord. This will be a very nasty experience with wet ropes and a hard-to-pull rappel. Yeah, exactly... The knot must be placed on the proper side of the rap rings, as there's significantly less friction being applied to the Tech Cord. It's actually really nice to use the Tech Cord to retrieve the climbing line, as the Tech Cord hardly stretches at all... So if you do need to pull hard on it, you can flip a few wraps around you foot and step down on it to get it to release. It is a bit harder to pull at first (as the climbing line weighs more), but it's honestly not that big of a deal.
rgold wrote: 2. Speaking of hard-to-pull rappels, the knot can actually jam in the rings. To prevent the rope from becoming jammed in the rings, I always put a large safety knot that's large enough so it won't ever have a chance of being pulled partially through.
rgold wrote: 3. A 5.5mm rope can tangle horrendously, and serious amounts of time can be consumed undoing the messes. Not good when the sun is setting. Yeah, I found this out first hand... I originally was coiling the line, but several times it ended up in a huge mess. I had an old tube type rope bag, so I tried stuffing it in there and that's been its home ever since... I've yet to have it tangle since. I have the end of the line tied to the inside of the bag, so once the ropes are tied together I just throw the bag full of line and it comes out perfeclty in about 5 seconds... it takes a bit more time to stuff it in the bag, but it's not a big deal.
rgold wrote: 4. If the rappel hangs irretreviably after one end is up and out of reach, you are left with the option of either prussiking on 5.5mm cord (of course, not being sure whether the rope will hold---this would be very dicey in any case, but it certainly has been done), leading back up on the 5.5mm rope using the ``inchworm'' technique on the accumulated slack, or cutting off whatever 5.5mm cord you have and using that for the rest of the descent. In all cases, you have to do your business on a 5.5mm static line. Frightening. Yeah, that would definitely suck. I've yet to have a line get permanently stuck and whether or not I was using the tech cord or not I would really not be so stoked about having to prussik up either not knowing if it might give way at any moment. Fuck that. I do see how having two 10mm lines would be better in that circumstance, but I really don't know if prussiking up a 7mm nylon line would make me all that much more happy about the situation, when compared to the 5.5mm Tech Cord. It's a pretty fucked up situation no matter how you look at it.
rgold wrote: 5. You are essentially doing single-strand rappels. Forgetting to rig your descending devices appropriately (double biners?) could lead to a very rapid descent. Yeah, I agree, it's essentially a single-strand rap. I use an 8-plate to rap with, so it's not a problem. But yeah, with an ATC, you would definitely want to make sure you were paying attention... As with anything else in climbing that can get you injured.
rgold wrote: 6. Putting a full-length rope in the second's pack is a waste of resources. There are all kinds of uses for such a rope during the ascent if it is running from leader to second. Totally, like most people, I'd really prefer not to carry that much extra weight on climbs.
rgold wrote: In my opinion, the smallest line one should consider for a trail line is 7mm. Tangling with it is plenty bad enough. As for what I do, if the climb is primarily a free climb (no jumaring), then I prefer half ropes for their incredible versatility and extra safety margin. However, there is a weight penalty, which perhaps could be offset by paring down that 30 pound rack! LOL, the 30-lb rack was a worst case scenario... I don't usually carry much more than half of that... There have been climbs where I needed a crap load of large gear though, so that's what I was refering to. I totally agree about not liking to Jumar... If I'm climbing, then I like to be doing it with my hands and feet, NOT the gear... lol, well, my partner might disagree with that statement, heh. I haven't ever climbed with half ropes, and I've never really looked that much into their advantages... Not that I think I'll never do that, I just haven't really considered it I guess.
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jeremy11
Nov 24, 2007, 1:29 AM
Post #32 of 48
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Get the Cilogear 20L. I got mine this August, and have used it doing multipitch trad, dayhikes, mountain running, and mountain biking. it is a great size for these, and mixes durability and lightweight really well. I've led some easy chimney and offwidth routes with it on, and it doesn't even show. The price is right, the company is great, and it clips easily onto my Cilogear 60L. now get it already and go climbing!
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theirishman
Nov 24, 2007, 3:42 AM
Post #33 of 48
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Registered: Aug 17, 2005
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dude its all about the metolious crag pack!
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climbingaggie03
Nov 24, 2007, 4:12 AM
Post #34 of 48
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I'm confused and intrigued by your description of your system. could you explain how you rig raps a bit more? what's an 8 plate? is it like a figure 8? when you rap does the knot rest on the rap rings/bolt hangers? I read something in your post about fixing the tech cord to the next rap station for when the second raps, is this just to keep from pulling the knot against the rap rings more than necessary? I'm kind of interested in your system as an emergency/bail system, but I can't quite figure it out from your post.
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pwscottiv
Nov 24, 2007, 9:04 AM
Post #35 of 48
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climbingaggie03 wrote: I'm confused and intrigued by your description of your system. could you explain how you rig raps a bit more? what's an 8 plate? is it like a figure 8? when you rap does the knot rest on the rap rings/bolt hangers? I read something in your post about fixing the tech cord to the next rap station for when the second raps, is this just to keep from pulling the knot against the rap rings more than necessary? I'm kind of interested in your system as an emergency/bail system, but I can't quite figure it out from your post. It's pretty simple actually If you've ever rapped with two ropes, then it's essentially the same thing... With the exceptions being that you must have the knot on small rope side of the rap rings. I usually carry a couple rings with me incase there's not one at a rap station. The other thing you need to consider is that there's a bit less friction on the rope, so your rap could go much faster than you expect unless you take it into consideration. An 8-plate is just a figure eight.
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pwscottiv
Nov 24, 2007, 9:07 AM
Post #36 of 48
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jeremy11 wrote: Get the Cilogear 20L. I got mine this August, and have used it doing multipitch trad, dayhikes, mountain running, and mountain biking. it is a great size for these, and mixes durability and lightweight really well. I've led some easy chimney and offwidth routes with it on, and it doesn't even show. The price is right, the company is great, and it clips easily onto my Cilogear 60L. now get it already and go climbing! Thanks! Does anyone know any retailers who carry it (like REI)? I live in San Luis Obispo, CA if that helps.
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rgold
Nov 24, 2007, 7:01 PM
Post #38 of 48
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How about doing it this way: 1. Rig the rappel with the knot on the big rope side of the rap rings. For everyone but the last person, link the two ropes below the rap rings with a quickdraw (or two for the redundancy-minded) so the big rope can't pull the small rope through the rings. 2. Before the last person rappels, anchor the tech cord to the next anchor down or to one of the already-descended climbers. The last person removes the quick draw(s) and does a single-strand rap on the big rope. 3. The rope is recovered by pulling down the big rope, with, one imagines, very little resistance from the small one and no rope-gripping hassles. And if anything goes wrong with the retrieval, one at least has the big rope to work with. Drawbacks: 1. The last person down has to remember to remove the quickdraw. 2. Someone has to anchor the small rope before the last person rappels on the big rope. Failure to anchor the small rope would kill the last person down and strand the rest of the party. 3. Not something that should be an issue, but the anchor loads are higher in this method because of the pulley effect at the top anchor.
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pwscottiv
Nov 25, 2007, 7:57 AM
Post #39 of 48
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I could see that working if you were 100% sure that the small line was anchored below... I sure wouldn't want to be the last guy on a super windy day where you can't see the next rap anchors. Not to shoot your idea down, but it seems a bit more complex and dangerous than it needs to be... I haven't had problems with the system as it is.
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tomcat
Nov 26, 2007, 1:09 PM
Post #41 of 48
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How does this work if there are no "rings".As in you are on an alpine route,or must bail partway up a pitch due to storm etc.Not every climb I do has rings here in NH,sometimes it's just me leaving a sling.Did it yesterday. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would trad climb on a 10.5 and carry 5mm in a pack,total of 15.5 mm ,when you could have all the advantages of two ropes for 17mm,or less.
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slhappy
Nov 26, 2007, 5:05 PM
Post #42 of 48
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Cold cold world Ozone is a sweet pack...simple, durable, and just the right size. I use it throughout the Sierras winter, summer, spring and fall...check it out. http://www.coldcoldworldpacks.com/ozone.htm
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Knox_Harrington
Nov 26, 2007, 10:27 PM
Post #43 of 48
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pwscottiv wrote: So I need a small pack so my second can climb with our approach shoes, water, and 60m of 5mm Tech-Cord. How does your second feel about this? And shouldn't they be the one picking the pack?
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pwscottiv
Nov 26, 2007, 10:38 PM
Post #44 of 48
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Knox_Harrington wrote: pwscottiv wrote: So I need a small pack so my second can climb with our approach shoes, water, and 60m of 5mm Tech-Cord. How does your second feel about this? And shouldn't they be the one picking the pack? I'm not always climbing with the same person, nor do each of my partners have their own packs... Or if they do, they aren't suited to climb with. I can't force my seconds to buy a decent pack, so I decided the best option would be to offer one. And I'm not always leading every pitch either, so I'd like to have a decent pack for myself.
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elnero
Nov 27, 2007, 7:02 PM
Post #45 of 48
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Registered: Mar 1, 2006
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Cold cold world makes some sweet packs. I've got a bigger one, but they also make a smaller, probably 20L size pack that would be nice. super light, burly.
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crackboy
Nov 29, 2007, 8:32 PM
Post #46 of 48
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I wish the bullet pack had compression straps. it would make it perfect. I havea couple of em and might try to rig some up
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rgold
Nov 29, 2007, 9:11 PM
Post #47 of 48
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Some of the packs mentioned differ considerably. Chaos: weight 36 oz, volume 2300 cc. CiloGear 20L: weight 10 oz, volume 1220 cc. Bullet: weight 13 oz, volume 976 cc.
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crackers
Nov 29, 2007, 11:12 PM
Post #48 of 48
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rgold wrote: Some of the packs mentioned differ considerably. Ozone: weight 36 oz, volume 2300 cc. CiloGear 20L: weight 10 oz, volume 1220 cc. Bullet: weight 13 oz, volume 976 cc. It's more than just weight. I think that all three packs are excellent, and designed for different purposes. And I designed one of them and sell it! But these packs really are so darn different, I have to wonder how we can compare them... CCW's Ozone is an inexpensive, incredibly durable and very simple pack. It's a top loader with a capacity of about 40 liters and a fixed lid. It would compare to CiloGear's new 40B. Except that it's made from really really heavy cloth, and I suspect you could haul it more than a few times...A friend of mine has been using one of these for quite a while. It's quite big, and could easily accept your rack and all the rest. The BD Bullet just got redesigned, and is no longer the small leaders pack we all remember. Now it's a bit bigger, and a more rounded design. It's still a panel loader / clamshell, but now it uses two different weights of fabric, and I suspect that it won't be as durable for hauling as they used to be. That said, I haven't seen one, so I'll shut up before inserting my foot any deeper in my mouth. I can say that I love my old Bullet, but it's too small for size 12 sneakers. The CiloGear 20L is of course dear to my heart. They're great leader's packs for alpinists. It's another top loader, but it's quite small. It will fit size 12 shoes, but it won't fit much more than that. Also, the fabric was selected for fast and light criterion rather than durability. Haul it up rock, and it won't be happy. It's more like a BD Beebee than the Bullet. And CCW doesn't make anything this size on a regular basis.edit: you can always call CCW and ask if they've got something appropriate! For what the OP asked for, I'd recommend ordering a full Dyneema CiloGear 30L pack. We make them to order and it takes a couple of weeks, so if the OP needs the pack now it wouldn't work. The new CG 30L has a removable lid and hipbelt, collapses down really small, and has the necessary volume to fit two pairs of shoes, a shell, some food & water and it has a nice new gear loop system. Then again, I make the darn things, so you've got to take my opinion as that of a proud dad. ;) And when we make them out of the Dyneema fabric, they are bombproof... Good luck!
(This post was edited by crackers on Nov 29, 2007, 11:15 PM)
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