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Toerag
Nov 26, 2007, 4:55 PM
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Trad is alive and well in the UK and probably will always be so.
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kyote321
Nov 26, 2007, 5:47 PM
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ya'll don't really have a choice! most of your areas are closed to bolting.
and, yes trad is definately more expensive. but, from my insider info, the relative cost was taken into effect. according to him, the greater accesibily of trad climbs and people from the gym wanting the best bang for buck in the outdoors are going trad, more than sport. btw, he is a full-time amga guide.
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Toerag
Nov 26, 2007, 5:58 PM
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There are actually quite a lot of sport crags but the grades only really start in the 7's
I think it is also down to a very strong Trad ethic, Sport is still seen to be what the French do, also top roping is frowned upon. it's just not cricket as the knobs might say
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chossmonkey
Nov 26, 2007, 6:09 PM
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"Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.
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midwestpaul
Nov 26, 2007, 7:01 PM
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I was pretty psyched to climb in NC last weekend and see a whole wall being climbed by 5-10 parties and not a bolt in sight. From the mess of gear and dogs at the bottom, it should have been a sport crag.
I don't think trad is dying. I think sport and bouldering are growing exponentially due to an extremely forgiving learning curve (how long does it take to learn to clip a bolt).
Trad climbers should be psyched because this means more sport crag development which means varied and more interesting training for the real challenge: trad.
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notapplicable
Nov 26, 2007, 10:00 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: "Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.
Well said, Sr.
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tradrenn
Nov 28, 2007, 2:59 AM
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Trad is dying in Quebec, Ontario and Kentucky, IMFHO.
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healyje
Nov 28, 2007, 8:33 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: "Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.
What's actually in vogue when it comes to 'trad' climbing is sport climbing on gear. Lots of the cross-overs I see are using gear - but they are sport climbing on it. Aside from being a risky proposition when they don't recheck their pieces after taking on them, it well illustrates that the real distinction between trad and sport isn't the bolts - it's the dogging. As climbing shuffles down the cultural path from 'climbing' to 'trad climbing' to 'adventure climbing' one can only wonder how long before we're at 'danger climbing'.
Pretty much the same split happened on water as well. Go out on a big day in the Columbia River Gorge and all the windsurfers are in the 40s and 50s; all the kids are on kite rigs which are way easier to learn, use and a lot less hassle than windsurfing. Most kids don't want to deal with the fairly brutal learning curve of windsurfing in the Gorge.
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theirishman
Nov 28, 2007, 9:05 PM
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didier is a bad ass for chop bolts when you can use natural pro, sport climbing is meant for when you CANT place trad gear, if you climb a crack, place some gear~!
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mattltambor
Nov 28, 2007, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: ... As climbing shuffles down the cultural path from 'climbing' to ' trad climbing' to ' adventure climbing' one can only wonder how long before we're at ' danger climbing'.
I'm up for some Danger Climbing - who wants a partner?! 
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caughtinside
Nov 28, 2007, 9:24 PM
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healyje wrote: Go out on a big day in the Columbia River Gorge and all the windsurfers are in the 40s and 50s; all the kids are on kite rigs which are way easier to learn, use and a lot less hassle than windsurfing. Most kids don't want to deal with the fairly brutal learning curve of windsurfing in the Gorge.
Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.
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jt512
Nov 28, 2007, 10:57 PM
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swede wrote: In Norway I have heard they bolted every crack in some areas.
Smoked fish, Opera, and now bolted cracks. I like these Norwegians.
Jay
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healyje
Nov 28, 2007, 11:08 PM
Post #38 of 124
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caughtinside wrote: Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.
You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board...
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caughtinside
Nov 28, 2007, 11:36 PM
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healyje wrote: caughtinside wrote: Or maybe kite surfing is more fun. You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board...
Nope. And I don't think you've done too much surfing, but I think you make comparisons there all the time.
I've tried kiteboarding and windsurfing, 2x each. Not my thing, but when those dudes with the kites fire thirty feet into the air, they look like they're having fun to me.
The old guy who I used to see kneeboarding in 15' surf looked like he was having fun too.
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healyje
Nov 29, 2007, 12:03 AM
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caughtinside wrote: healyje wrote: caughtinside wrote: Or maybe kite surfing is more fun. You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board... Nope. And I don't think you've done too much surfing, but I think you make comparisons there all the time.
Nope, just enough to make those comparisons about not being able to bolt waves. Not that those comparisons require any surfing to make, though.
caughtinside wrote: I've tried kiteboarding and windsurfing, 2x each. Not my thing, but when those dudes with the kites fire thirty feet into the air, they look like they're having fun to me.
So are the folks on a windsurfer 40-50 feet over a trough on a big day - though I have do say, I haven't seen anyone throw a double forward lately.
The point being, however, is there are clear, valid parallels between sport-trad and kiting-Windsufing. Sport and Kiting are both so popular because they far less commitment and skill compared to Trad and Windsurfing. You can be up and competent on a kite in a span of a month or two compared to a year or two windsurfing.
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dan2see
Nov 29, 2007, 12:47 AM
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On climbing day, we jump in the car at 9:00 am, rush out to the hills, climb 'till 3:00 pm, jump in the car, rush back to the city, and have a beer and dinner.
Some folks boulder, some sport, some multi-pitch, some just hike.
So it's the activity. There's not a lot of room for ethics.
Well I do this, too, so I can't claim to be anybody's shining example. Personally I'm not satisfied with this routine, but I really think the activity takes priority over the ethics.
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azenari
Nov 29, 2007, 12:53 AM
Post #42 of 124
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no i don't think so. I think trad climbing will be around for quite a while. I mean who wants to bolt a climb with a predominant crack? Also, there could be a resurgence as newer and (perceived-as-safer/safer) equipment reaches the market.
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caughtinside
Nov 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
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healyje wrote: You can be up and competent on a kite in a span of a month or two compared to a year or two windsurfing.
That may be true, I'm in no position to confirm or deny it.
You might also say the same thing about snowboarding. Yet, it has had an undeniable impact on skiing.
Kind of like how sport climbing has advanced big wall freeclimbing.
Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared.
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healyje
Nov 29, 2007, 1:28 AM
Post #45 of 124
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caughtinside wrote: Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared.
Actually they can - the analogy stand just fine whether you happen to like it or not. The point being that if it were not possible to bolt rock we'd have about 85% fewer climbers. And if you could bolt or otherwise protect big waves surfing wouldn't have the respect for its elders that it does.
Tow-in surfing would be the closer analogy these days. Sure some waves are only really possible towing in, but folks are now towing-in on smaller waves which actually only require skill and resolve to surf. In fact, a brief google search brings up this gem from a Honolulu paper:
In reply to: Some North Shore surfers have complained about tow-in teams plowing through popular breaks such as Chun's Reef and Laniakea — both close enough to shore to paddle to — in 3- to 4-foot surf.
Same bullshit, different sport...
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caughtinside
Nov 29, 2007, 1:48 AM
Post #46 of 124
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healyje wrote: caughtinside wrote: Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared. Actually they can - the analogy stand just fine whether you happen to like it or not. The point being that if it were not possible to bolt rock we'd have about 85% fewer climbers. And if you could bolt or otherwise protect big waves surfing wouldn't have the respect for its elders that it does. Tow-in surfing would be the closer analogy these days. Sure some waves are only really possible towing in, but folks are now towing-in on smaller waves which actually only require skill and resolve to surf. In fact, a brief google search brings up this gem from a Honolulu paper: In reply to: Some North Shore surfers have complained about tow-in teams plowing through popular breaks such as Chun's Reef and Laniakea — both close enough to shore to paddle to — in 3- to 4-foot surf. Same bullshit, different sport...
Well, I still disagree. The lack of bolting on waves doesn't mean that there aren't many surfers.
Respect for elders? Order is enforced at many breaks by violence. Lack of lineup etiquette is rampant and competition for waves is beyond fierce. Big wave surfing has exploded in popularity in the last 10 years. The only reason there aren't even more big wave surfers is because there are only a few accessible big waves, and they don't break terribly often.
Yeah, sometimes guys do tow in to smaller waves to learn how. Sure it's annoying, and maybe they should find a less crowded wave to practice on. WOuld you suggest they tow straight into Jaws? Do you really think Laird Hamilton's first tow in was on a 40' wave?
I'm not sure where you get your thoughts and opinions about surfing. But, it's perfectly obvious it is not from actual surfing. FYI, I have surfed Chun's reef, Laniakea, and Pipe.
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healyje
Nov 29, 2007, 2:12 AM
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caughtinside wrote: Yeah, sometimes guys do tow in to smaller waves to learn how. Sure it's annoying, and maybe they should find a less crowded wave to practice on. WOuld you suggest they tow straight into Jaws? Do you really think Laird Hamilton's first tow in was on a 40' wave?
I and they aren't talking about folks practicing to tow-in onto 40' waves - the problem is folks are now towing into small waves and not for practice.
caughtinside wrote: I'm not sure where you get your thoughts and opinions about surfing. But, it's perfectly obvious it is not from actual surfing. FYI, I have surfed Chun's reef, Laniakea, and Pipe.
Yeah, I haven't surfed a ton, mainly pre-hotels McKenna on Maui in the 70's and few goes at Bondi in the 80's. I'm well aware of the crowding and violence in the lineups - that was the case at McKenna in '78 - nothing new about that. I'm guessing offhand you'd be towing in at Maverick's if you showed up - why would surfing be any different?
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 29, 2007, 2:14 AM)
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caughtinside
Nov 29, 2007, 2:27 AM
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healyje wrote: I'm guessing offhand you'd be towing in at Maverick's if you showed up - why would surfing be any different?
hey that's cute, guessing how I'd surf. It's also pretty funny, since the first guys to tow in to mavericks were also some of the early maverick's paddle in guys.
But continue, your speculation about something you know zero about is great. Bondi in the 80s. Good one. I didn't surf Bondi until '99. Then I wised up and surfed Manly and Queenscliff.
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mach2
Nov 29, 2007, 2:38 AM
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This may not be surfing related, but I think Evidence that trad is certainly not on the decline is the prominent gear development. The Link cam, the powercam, lightweight tricams, ultralight stoppers, the master cam(soon), the max cam, the c3, etc. If there weren't a large enough gathering of people to buy such items, the companies wouldn't have put in the R&D much less testing to bring these things to fruition. Plus as others have said before, as production gets cheaper, we will likely see the cost barrier for buying gear decrease, thus trad or gear climbing and classic ethics may flourish once again.
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caughtinside
Nov 29, 2007, 2:46 AM
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mach2 wrote: Plus as others have said before, as production gets cheaper, we will likely see the cost barrier for buying gear decrease, thus trad or gear climbing and classic ethics may flourish once again.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you on the cost angle... for example, BD moved their cam production to China. And the price of camalots actually went up, by a buck a cam or so.
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