|
jaybro
Dec 10, 2007, 4:26 AM
Post #76 of 124
(3807 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2005
Posts: 441
|
Yeah, trad is dead, stay away!
|
|
|
|
|
heximp
Dec 10, 2007, 4:38 AM
Post #77 of 124
(3805 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 169
|
LOL
Dying breed? If that is so, may I be in their will?
One fact is I really love playing with gear that is made especially for Trad climbing. Especially cam devices, pulling the trigger has such a positive effect on me.
Plus...
Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime!
AF
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Dec 10, 2007, 5:40 AM
Post #78 of 124
(3790 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
heximp wrote: Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime! AF
There are a lot of spiritual criminals out there. 
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 10, 2007, 7:11 AM
Post #79 of 124
(3770 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
heximp wrote: Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime! AF
Where do you people come up with this stuff?
This is the 21st Century, folks.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jaybro
Dec 11, 2007, 7:30 AM
Post #80 of 124
(3736 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2005
Posts: 441
|
We are Devo!!
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Dec 11, 2007, 9:42 AM
Post #81 of 124
(3724 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
Torag7 wrote: So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?
I haven't done a ton of climbing in the last few years but I'm a trad climber.
Honestly part of why I stopped climbing regularly (on rock, I still climb ice as much as possible) was the crowds. Don't get me wrong, I can escape them quite easily but sometimes you realize there is a reason why people congregate at certain areas, EASE OF ACCESS.
In the Gunks (not too much sport) climbing is bigger than ever, and that is with the $100 a year climbing pass or $12 (a few years ago) weekend day pass.
Personally, i wish it was a dying sport, I mean my cams, chocks, hexes, and stuff will last decades even if trad climbing ceased to exist to the masses, and I can always buy sport weenie ropes and harnesses and stuff at the local Eddie Bauer (i mean EMS).
If it was a dying sport all those popular cliffs (that are popular for a reasoN) wouldn't have any lines. ...I hope the sport bites the dust!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
cchas
Dec 11, 2007, 3:08 PM
Post #82 of 124
(3700 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 344
|
Now what is a dying breed is hard alpine climbers. There are a bunch of people doing easy alpine but amoung the whole climbing community not a lot doing hard alpine. But I have to say its good to see some new faces in that arena such as Colin Haley.
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Dec 11, 2007, 6:30 PM
Post #83 of 124
(3675 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
Doesn't the very word "Trad (as in Traditional)" suggest we know it is the 21st century, but we embrace our history.
Hell, why climb it at all if you can just aid up it. Clippin the chains is clippin the chains.
Bolt ladders for everyone.
PT
|
|
|
|
|
homasta
Dec 28, 2007, 9:17 PM
Post #84 of 124
(3599 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 13
|
actually more of my younger climbing friends are into trad they enjoy seeing how far they can run it out or how sketchy the pro was its the older guys at the gym who only sport because of their fear so I think it actually is the new thing to do at least here in nc ps excuse grammar and spelling just got my itouch and have not gotten used to it yet
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 28, 2007, 9:53 PM
Post #85 of 124
(3580 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
cchas wrote: Now what is a dying breed is hard alpine climbers. There are a bunch of people doing easy alpine but amoung the whole climbing community not a lot doing hard alpine.
There are 'hard' trad and alpine climbers today - but as a percentage of the total population of people who identify themselves as 'climbers' - their numbers have dropped precipitously from the '70s. What we have now is a massive and shallow pyramid of climbers, 85% or so who simply pull plastic and clip bolts at a beginning and intermediate level, with an exceptionally small percentage of the whole who percolate up to do amazing things.
That's a marked contrast to thirty years ago when there was a small total population, but one consisting of few beginners and made up of mostly intermediate and advanced climbers. The very best then were generated out of a much, much smaller base of largely competent climbers compared to today. That's because, before gyms and sport climbing, you learned fast or found another sport and the majority of 'climbers' today wouldn't have been then.
paintrain wrote: Doesn't the very word "Trad (as in Traditional)" suggest we know it is the 21st century, but we embrace our history
We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial.
homasta wrote: actually more of my younger climbing friends are into trad they enjoy seeing how far they can run it out or how sketchy the pro was its the older guys at the gym who only sport because of their fear so I think it actually is the new thing to do at least here in nc.
If trad is dying, NC will be one of the last bastions of holdouts - young and old.
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 28, 2007, 9:59 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
andrewbanandrew
Dec 28, 2007, 9:54 PM
Post #86 of 124
(3577 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 441
|
most of the people in the climbing club at our school are alpine types
but there are tons of people who climb in the gym but do not belong to the climbing club
|
|
|
|
|
bradkillough
Dec 29, 2007, 1:59 PM
Post #87 of 124
(3535 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2007
Posts: 43
|
Don't bolt a crack, dummie!!
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Dec 29, 2007, 5:04 PM
Post #88 of 124
(3516 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
healyje wrote: We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial.
What is with the grumpy old man fatalist attitude. I'm kind of laughing at your response as it doesn't say much of anything other than you put on both legs of your grumpy pants.
Climbing has evolved for many many years and has constantly changed. Would you like us to go back to your ideal of 30 years ago when everyone was hard or quit. Or should we just lose the helmets, run out everything, and only use antiquated pieces of protection and equipment in honor of your ideal?
The fact that 30 years ago you didn't have the other types of climbing, really doesn't bear on the argument of the populace.
Since there were a lot more choice lines 30 years ago and so few people doing it, it might have seemed more amazing. The percentage of climbers climbing at the top grades of 30 years ago now is pretty high. Now to pull something amazing off requires a professional level of training and time to climb that few have the resources to obtain.
What do I have to do to be 'hard'? VII, 5.12x, M9, A4, AI7 in 6 hours solo with a piece of dental floss for rapping off? Do I have to tie into a swammy and only use hexes while climbing 5.11?
What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial.
PT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 29, 2007, 5:12 PM
Post #89 of 124
(3510 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
paintrain wrote: What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial. PT
I have no idea myself. I do not think yesterday's wine will provide the ultimate answer however. Whatever trad is to become, today's youth will be the driving force.
So whats it take? You and yourn will have to decide that.
Joseph is correct to point out the way things were. Check out this article if you have a few free minutes:
http://www.stanford.edu/...nt/yos/hourglass.htm
I offer that with no qualification other than the request that you read it.
Cheers
DMT
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
epoch
Moderator
Dec 29, 2007, 6:04 PM
Post #90 of 124
(3499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
|
dingus wrote: paintrain wrote: What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial. PT I have no idea myself. I do not think yesterday's wine will provide the ultimate answer however. Whatever trad is to become, today's youth will be the driving force. So whats it take? You and yourn will have to decide that. Joseph is correct to point out the way things were. Check out this article if you have a few free minutes: http://www.stanford.edu/...nt/yos/hourglass.htm I offer that with no qualification other than the request that you read it. Cheers DMT Cheers DMT
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Dec 29, 2007, 6:45 PM
Post #91 of 124
(3487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
Peter Hahn's account of the Hourglass; one of the all-time classics of climbing writing in my opinion.
Personally, I've been climbing long enough (50 years) to see it all. I started with soft iron pitons, graduated to chromemolly, gave 'em up for nuts, and ultimately embraced cams. My climbing was certainly motivated by a now-vanishing trad ethic that, as Joe points out, is only partially related to the "sport technique on gear" commonly practiced today. The fact is that "real" trad climbing died with the introduction of cams, which have made crack-climbing possible in almost the same way that bolts have made overhanging face climbing possible.
But don't get me wrong---it's fine with me. As Dingus says, today's answers will not be found in yesterday's wine, and modern climbers, trained in the gym, on hard boulder problems, and on brutal sport climbs have already and will continue venture forth to do trad routes beyond the imagination, not to mention the abilities, of the older generation. There is nothing new in this either. Every new generation has to find a way to build on and exceed the accomplishments of their elders, almost always by embracing approaches the elders denied themselves, and the elders always see the demise of the sport in the new activities of the next generation.
I've done my share of mind-bending R- and X-rated leads. I've fallen and lowered instead of hanging, and have missed out completely on doing routes I might have made in the modern style because I judged myself "not ready." I have no regrets about this, it was the way we did things and I am as proud of my restraint as I am of any of my occasional minor successes. But I do not hold subsequent generations to our old standards, in fact I don't hold myself to them either. In my declining years, I'm happy to have the extra technology and less stringent "rules of the game," they allow me to continue to experience the fundamental joys of climbing in my sixties when I am no longer willing or able to climb as I did in my thirties. If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on.
To paraphrase the ancient French refrain proclaiming the passing of a monarch and coronation of a new one,
Trad is dead. Long live trad.
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Dec 29, 2007, 11:48 PM
Post #92 of 124
(3465 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
Thanks. That was a good read. There are some definite themes in there a lot of folks attach to their ideals of trad. The golden age of Yosemite seems to be what most folks point at as the apex, but I sometimes see it as the beginning of the decline as well.
Different parts of the world have seen their own versions of our American golden age and there have been ages and eras that shine in history. I have been reading some classic climbing lit of late; Shipton, Tillman, Bonatti, Herzog, etc. The ranges of accomplishments, the varying attitudes, backgrounds, and approaches.
I've got about 20 years of climbing under my belt. I look back on what I valued 20 years ago compared to today and some has changed, some hasn't. But it is usually defined by what we were reared in.
Having your teeth cut in a climbing gym is different than learning based on some of the older notions, but the older notions were smashed by many of the attitudes of the Yo golden boys along the way.
Thanks again Dingus and rgold.
Trad is dead. Long live trad.
PT
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 30, 2007, 1:24 AM
Post #93 of 124
(3454 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
paintrain wrote: healyje wrote: We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial. What is with the grumpy old man fatalist attitude?
Hey, at the very least let's agree to call a spade a spade - the only thing "fatalistic", or predestined, about the linquistic perversions above is they illuminate the inevitable effects of packaging and selling a risk-free version of climbing to a mass market as just another entertainment option.
paintrain wrote: The fact that 30 years ago you didn't have the other types of climbing, really doesn't bear on the argument of the populace
True, we didn't have sport climbing, but we had 'trad', aid, bouldering, and alpine. Sport climbing and the gyms they spawned do bear entirely on the argument of populace - they are, in fact, entirely responsible for the populace.
paintrain wrote: The percentage of climbers climbing at the top grades of 30 years ago now is pretty high.
The percentage of today's climbers capable of being handed a rack of stoppers and hexes to do those 5.11's of yesteryear in the same style they were put up in is still small, and miniscule as a percentage of the total number of today's climbers. And that's part of the beauty of them - grab some hexs and stoppers and you to can still have the same experience as the FA if you want to do more than talk about it. Don't kid yourself, climbing at the edge of the possible was no less daunting then, or at any other time, than it is today - such thinking can only be considered part of the [necessary] arrogance of youth.
As Dingus and JStan say, the future is written by the young, but again, don't kid yourself that some large percentage of 'climbers' today are doing remarkable climbing - they aren't - they're clipping bolts as risk-free entertainment, quite often as a group social activity. There would be nothing wrong with that if it weren't for the crowding, impact, access issues, and cost in bolts the price tag for this 'populace' comes with.
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 30, 2007, 1:31 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 30, 2007, 1:34 AM
Post #94 of 124
(3447 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
rgold wrote: I've done my share of mind-bending R- and X-rated leads. I've fallen and lowered instead of hanging, and have missed out completely on doing routes I might have made in the modern style because I judged myself "not ready." I have no regrets about this, it was the way we did things and I am as proud of my restraint as I am of any of my occasional minor successes. But I do not hold subsequent generations to our old standards, in fact I don't hold myself to them either. In my declining years, I'm happy to have the extra technology and less stringent "rules of the game," they allow me to continue to experience the fundamental joys of climbing in my sixties when I am no longer willing or able to climb as I did in my thirties. If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on. Trad is dead. Long live trad.
Well said and I thank you for your honesty. Its a trait that is rarer than it should be.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 30, 2007, 2:08 AM
Post #95 of 124
(3434 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
rgold wrote: If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on.
I could give a rip if new generations climb as we did, what I care about is the cost in pristine rock being voraciously consumed to provide risk-free climbing to the majority of new generations whom otherwise would not be climbing. We are essentially talking about the complete commidification of rock as no different from any other resource sold as a consumer product. The thinking, or lack thereof, is basically the fulfilment of Hardings prophecy of the inevitable (fatalistic) shift of focus from rock to humans. The transition is now so complete just attempting to articulate the concepts behind them is like talking Swahili to an Eskimo.
rgold wrote: Trad is dead. Long live trad.
Monarchal transitions are one thing - the death of monachy is entirely another. We are more a witness to the latter than the former.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Dec 30, 2007, 2:12 AM
Post #96 of 124
(3431 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today.
A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right.
Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling. It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an entire generation because our hair isn't grey yet is bullshit.
I'm not argueing for sport climbing or gym climbing. As you've probably seen in my posts, sport climbing is best kept for time with pretty girls or hangovers. It's not really "good". You know that about me, I'm not some naive sporto. You know in fact, that I've probably climbed more 5.11+ and harder trad routes this year than total routes you've climbed this year. Lets be straight on this, you're not talking to a gym rat now.
I'm waiting. Anxiously in fact. Tell me about your stoppers, your hexes, your bad rubber. Bring it all up. Call me out, do it. I'm 29 years old and I'm too god damn young to know how rad you were.
PS, I've never been more than 2 feet away from a piece of protection. That made me cry.
(This post was edited by angry on Dec 30, 2007, 2:15 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 30, 2007, 5:48 AM
Post #97 of 124
(3392 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
angry wrote: Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today.
Please, do get angry...!
angry wrote: A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right.
Then you'll be able to comment on the substance of my posts as opposed to ci just responding to my clear personality disorders.
angry wrote: Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling.
Ah, I assume here you're jumping ot either my posts on other threads relative to the generational differences in the sound of climbing in crags ("take" now vs. "falling" then) or the posts on folks sport climbing on gear - which is more a safety issue. Both are entirely true and I agree are somewhat "stupid".
angry wrote: It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an entire generation because our hair isn't grey yet is bullshit.
Actually, my climbs from the mid-70's were uprated to 12's (including one that some, not me, argue is a 13; none were ever down rated - most all were 10's and 11's when 11's were the top of the rating system.
angry wrote: You know in fact, that I've probably climbed more 5.11+ and harder trad routes this year than total routes you've climbed this year. Lets be straight on this, you're not talking to a gym rat now.
That's possible given was out with a bad shoulder and a long bout of pnemonia for half the year. But, I still did manage a 9-pitch FA in Red Rocks (true, only a paltry 5.9 wide excercise) with one of the locals and broke through the first couple of pitches of this line onsight, cleaning and trundling free on lead before winter set in. That high roof is about a thirty footer with a couple of more smaller ones on the pitches above it out of sight. This summer when we reopen I'll need a strong partner to forge through those remaining roofs, come for a visit and you can see how I got the gray hair first hand.
|
|
|
|
|
jaybro
Dec 30, 2007, 6:09 AM
Post #98 of 124
(3381 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2005
Posts: 441
|
healyje wrote: angry wrote: Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today. Please, do get angry...! angry wrote: A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right. Then you'll be able to comment on the substance of my posts as opposed to ci just responding to my clear personality disorders. angry wrote: Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling. Ah, I assume here you're jumping ot either my posts on other threads relative to the generational differences in the sound of climbing in crags ("take" now vs. "falling" then) or the posts on folks sport climbing on gear - which is more a safety issue. Both are entirely true and I agree are somewhat "stupid". angry wrote: It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an e In reply to: This summer when we reopen I'll need a strong partner to forge through those remaining roofs, come for a visit and you can see how I got the gray hair first hand. [image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/IMG_9930_ publish.JPG[/image] sounds like you guys have a date! Take photos and let us know how it goes!
|
|
|
|
|
foeslts16
Dec 30, 2007, 7:20 AM
Post #99 of 124
(3369 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2002
Posts: 210
|
Great read, truly inspiring.
That fact that he was ready to give it all up for this one assent - either do it or die seems rather careless to me.
This kind of attitude is not expressed by most of the "older/original/hard core climbers that I have had the opportunity to climb and learn from. Their mantra seems to be more inline with Ed Viestur’s saying “Getting to the summit is optional, getting down is mandatory.”
If your life and persona is so tied to your climbing successes, that you would be willing to give it all up for that assent – I feel sorry for that person.
The guys that I really respect are those who can do an extremely challenging climb and return to tell about it.
(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Dec 30, 2007, 7:27 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 30, 2007, 8:46 AM
Post #100 of 124
(3356 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
foeslts16 wrote: The guys that I really respect are those who can do an extremely challenging climb and return to tell about it.
Well damn, if that isn't the whole trick of it, but sometimes the eye just fixes on something that the soul has to either follow or walk away from the whole affair that is climbing. Some of those obsessions are not without considerable peril. If you aren't sufficiently driven, it's stupid to leave the ground for that level of commitment. Assuming responsibility for navigating the unknown, including substantial risk, is what the heart and soul of onsight FAs and climbing is all about, regardless of how foreign the concept has become these days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
