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olive
Dec 22, 2007, 9:52 PM
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So I want to try/get into iceclimbing this winter and i am trying to put together the necessary stuff. My specific question is about pants: I am debating between hardshell vs. softshell. I have heard people advocating for softshells, but I wanted to ask and hear comments on why one should prefer one over the other. Also, I would appreciate if you can make specific brand/model suggestions. I always get baffled by the sheer amount of choice and would be happy to hear what people are using.
oh, and I am in Michigan, so UP, and NewYork are likely destinations.
Thanks a bunch...
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vtrescuekid
Dec 22, 2007, 10:10 PM
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Though I don't ice climb yet, for all my winter adventures I wear the Mammut Courmayeur's. They're lightweight, warm, breathable and can take a beating. They're reinforced in the right spots and allow for a full range of motion. They are about $180 a pair but if you find the right outlet stores you can get them for around $100. There's also the Mammut Champs that are similar. Just my two cents.
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tuna
Dec 22, 2007, 10:14 PM
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whatever type you get buy something not very expensive to start with.
You will yes you will stab your pants with one or more of the sharp objects being wielded by your hands and feet.
After the learning curve is over so to speak then go for something a bit more expensive and more durable.
I use an older pair of ski/snowboard pants by Saloman and just layer underneath depending on the temps.
I think gloves and a jacket with a tight collar are more important than the pants. Plus a comfy helmet is a must
ciao
Santana
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anykineclimb
Dec 22, 2007, 11:43 PM
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I'd also vote for the cheap option for now. YOu can get away with some inexpensive rain pants such as the Marmot Precip. If you like it, you can get something else nicer next season.
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justinboening
Dec 24, 2007, 6:30 AM
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get a softshell, they're more comfortable, less expensive than an equally durable hardshell, significantly more durable, and when you inevitably puncture the cuff (as others have alluded to) you haven't really destroyed anything. When you rip open a waterproof garment, it's no longer waterproof. As far as specific garments go, Patagonia guide pants are great (and the Simple model is fairly priced), as are anything made with Dryskin. Check out Beyondclothing.com for near custom clothing at a great price. When the spring brings rock climbing, wear the same pants you used all winter (minus the powerstretch tights). Have fun. Wear a helmet.
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Uncia
Dec 24, 2007, 5:46 PM
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Registered: Jul 3, 2007
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I vote softshell if you have the $$$. I have the arcteryx powershield pants pants and they rock. Somehow they are always warm enough and cool enough. I swear the things are cognizant.
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justinboening
Dec 24, 2007, 9:08 PM
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This "softshell if you have the money thing" is really confusing to me. I haven't worn a hardshell in winter for 7 years. You don't need a hardshell. A pair of Beyond Cold Play Pants costs $129, is custom sewn to your specifications, is incredibly durable, and can be worn nearly year-round. Similar comments can be made for the Patagonia Simple Guide Pants, which retail for $125. Now you can buy a pair of Marmot Precip pants for $70, but they don't even have a fly; furthermore, the pants are woefully inadequate for winter climbing in terms of features, breathability, and durability. You will destroy these pants if you where them all day. They're just not that kind of garment. In fact, in order to get a similar level of durability you'd have to spend twice as much as you'd have to spend on the stretch-woven pants. Now, of course you can spend a fortune on a pair of Arcteryx Gamma MX Pants (and you'll be psyched all winter long and probably even into the spring). My point is, examined over the course of a garments lifetime, softshells are no more expensive; in fact, when comparing most garments, the softshell garment is significantly LESS expensive than the hardshell equivalent. So why does everyone think that softshells are more expensive?
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chossmonkey
Dec 24, 2007, 9:27 PM
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I got hardshell bibs for $100 on sale. I'd like to get a pair of softshell pants but they are hard to find and expensive when I do find them.
Also, aren't hard shells much more water proof?
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Uncia
Dec 24, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Yes, hardshells are much more waterproof. Let me break it down how I see it.
Softshells: 95% of the time comfortable clothing, 5% of the time very uncomfortable clothing.
Hardshells: 100% of the time uncomfortable clothing.
Unless you are doing serious backcountry / mountaineering, do you even need to plan for the 5% case? How close are you to your car? Are you going to go ice climbing when it is sleeting?
And look at the post above yours. People have mentioned many cost effective softshells.
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martinheynert
Dec 24, 2007, 11:19 PM
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My selection follow the weather and ice conditions:
If it's warm and wet, I use my Goretex Paclite pieces from Millet, "Aerial Max". The fabric is stretch and it is fully waterproof. It is so thin that there is absolutely no isolation. But with an next-so-skin baselayer and a Powerstretch Midlayer and Powerstretch underpants it's fine for temperatures around the freezing point.
In colder conditions, I use a Mammut Castor pant, made of Schoeller WB400 fabric with a waterproof membrane. As jacket I take a Mammut Laser, made of Schoeller WB400 Nanosphere. If proper impregnated, this jacket defends a reasonable amount of water. This combination is clearly warmer than my Paclite outfit. With proper underwear, I can stand temperatures down to -10° Celsius. When waiting on the belay, I use an additional belay jacket either filled with down (Mammut Vinson) (conditions "dry") or with Primaloft (Millet Microloft).
Freedom of movement (stretch) is absolutely important to me when climbing. I can't have a hard feeling on my crotch. I need soft and stretchy clothes.
After I made my good experiences with Paclite, I wouldn't opt for traditional hardshell any more longer.
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granite_grrl
Dec 26, 2007, 3:42 AM
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I also got a nice pair of hardshell bibs on clearance, but covet a pair of softshells.
I would say if you are just trying ice climbing out get something cheep. I had a pair of nylon pants from EMS at first, kinda sucked but they worked. When you're committed to ice then start getting the fancy gear.
As to shredding them from your crampons...I have a cheap pair of gaiters which makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I also hate snow down my boots.
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martinheynert
Dec 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
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Rebecca,
I do not care so much for penetration of crampons. If that really occurs, I mean if the crampon breaks out/slips and hit my leg with some speed, gaiters won't be a protectio for the pants. The gaiters will be penetrated, too. The pants will be penetrated. My leg will be penetrated and often, the lower leg will be penetrated, too.
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dr_feelgood
Dec 26, 2007, 2:06 PM
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martinheynert wrote: Rebecca, I do not care so much for penetration of crampons. If that really occurs, I mean if the crampon breaks out/slips and hit my leg with some speed, gaiters won't be a protectio for the pants. The gaiters will be penetrated, too. The pants will be penetrated. My leg will be penetrated and often, the lower leg will be penetrated, too.
You're just all about being penetrated eh?
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tomcat
Dec 26, 2007, 2:48 PM
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I have both.I like the Ibex Softshells plenty,but for rock in fall or early spring.Tradchick and I did a lot of experimenting with different ice systems,and we both prefer a softshell top and hardshell bottom that can be vented well.
We like to be able to sit down once in a while to put on crampons or take em off.Sometimes I will sit and belay at the top.If you sit on snow or ice in softshells you have a wet butt.Ditto a waterspout when you pull a screw or tool out of some hydraulic goodness.
In my opinion what you don't really want is super expensive hardshell unless you are loaded.The advice for Marmot Precip or Mtn Hardwear Epic is good.Don't get snow collars or baggy pants,get thin ones with full or 3/4 zips,and a fairly snug profile in the leg,and then some decent gaiters,I like OR Crocs..You can buy three pairs of these for the price of Arcteryx or other high end bottoms.I have Marmot Alpinists I don't wear any longer in favor of the way lighter Epic's.
Softshell jacket is great.
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julio412
Dec 26, 2007, 5:35 PM
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Registered: May 16, 2005
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I'd tend to lean towards somrthing softshell,the fact your'e thinking about pants shows you gotta noggin,as most people only worry about jackets and stuff.Whatever you buy make sure all the zippers/flaps line up as you're little buddy will dribble dowm your leg if you pull him out over the top of your pants once you put him back in.Remember all that hydration has gotta go somewhere.
Try "sierratradingpost.com"as they usually have something available and accept returns.
Also I prefer a mountaineering harness which gives better access to all those zippers and "third tool"
You can always set up your belay device on your rope or use a Metolious type PAS,this helps if you're wearing a belay jacket
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justinboening
Dec 26, 2007, 8:30 PM
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If you're going to go cheap, that Mountain Hardwear Epic Pant, which retails for $80, would be a better choice than the Marmot Precip Pant--again, because the Precip doesn't have a fly. If you, tomcat, are really recommending a pant for all day use that doesn't have a fly, you either haven't actually used the product in the manner you're advocating, or don't hydrate properly. When you're wearing a harness, your pants must have a fly. Period. I mean, come on! Either choice, however, will give you a softshell by the end of the season anyway (like I've said before, you're going to ruin this style of pant). If you wear a set of Precip garment for a whole year, by the end you'll have certainly worn the coating off, at least in spots. These garments are what I like to call "retreat garments," clothes that lie crumpled in the bottom of your pack until you gamble and lose. So sure, carry a pair 0f these Epic Pants in the bottom of your pack. But wear a softshell while you climb. See how frequently you're forced to reach for the hardshell. I'll bet it's not often. Oh, check these out: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,46646_Cloudveil-Rayzar-Pants-Schoeller-Soft-Shell-For-Women.html
They're a great pair of pants. And yes, they'll last well over twice as long as the Precips.
But hey, if you decide you need a waterproof garment to ice climb (and I really do recognize that that's your prerogative,) check out these Mammut Castor Pants:
http://mgear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Mammut/idesc/Castor+Pant+%2D+Men%27s/Store/MG/item/208389/N/798
They're stretchy--really stretchy--waterproof, and extremely durable. Oh yeah, the fit on 'em is great too. Good luck man.
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granite_grrl
Dec 26, 2007, 9:23 PM
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martinheynert wrote: Rebecca, I do not care so much for penetration of crampons. If that really occurs, I mean if the crampon breaks out/slips and hit my leg with some speed, gaiters won't be a protectio for the pants. The gaiters will be penetrated, too. The pants will be penetrated. My leg will be penetrated and often, the lower leg will be penetrated, too.
Honestly, I'm not actually that worried. Gaiters are mostly for the hike in. Ironically, though I've never had a problem, my husband has managed to rip his gaiters with his crampons twice already. So I guess it does happen.
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tomcat
Dec 27, 2007, 5:38 PM
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Dunno why,I kinda figured someone named Olive didn't need a fly.My bad...lol.Thanks for the advice on hydrating Mr.Boenig,don't know how I got through thirty years of trad and ice without your timely advice.
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justinboening
Dec 27, 2007, 7:07 PM
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Registered: Nov 1, 2006
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Tomcat,
It's called a F.U.D., or Feminine Urinary Director. Google Freshette, which is one such company that makes the product. I've never been out in the mountains with a woman who hasn't used the thing. And sure, maybe you have a huge bladder and don't need to go during your day of ice climbing. I don't. And when I need to take a leak in the cold of winter, I want it to be quick as possible. I don't want to fiddle with my harness or pants with exposed hands, and I don't think anyone else does either. I know I'm being harsh here, but man, if you haven't figured this out yet, you're just in a really small minority. People who spend time in the mountains in winter don't drop their pants every time they need to pee. But it's probably the case that you do have a fly on your pants and you're just taking it for granted.
(This post was edited by justinboening on Dec 28, 2007, 8:48 AM)
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sandstone
Dec 27, 2007, 7:15 PM
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I prefer softshells. To me they're just more comfortable for a lot of reasons (stretch and breathability being the two most important). I've got two pair, one REI and one Mtn Hardware, both bought on sale (I got the Mtn Hardware from Sierra Trading Post). Also check out Eastern Mountain Sports, they have their own house brand of softshells, plus they pretty regularly have a sale on all the other brands.
My hardshell pants, well I haven't used them since I got my first pair of softshells if that tells you anything.
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angry
Dec 27, 2007, 7:21 PM
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I have a pretty decent pair of triple point ceramic hardshell pants. I climbed in them until I got some softshells.
Since then, I've only used the hardshell in Andes. I tried the softshells up there one day and they are just not warm enough.
Below 5000meters, I don't think hardshell pants are really useful.
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