|
|
|
|
skidawg
Jan 20, 2008, 1:25 AM
Post #1 of 42
(4956 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 6, 2005
Posts: 171
|
Alright, there's a chance some of you who spend all your time here will tell me this has already been covered, but I could only find pieces of my question here and there, so I'm sorry if it was, but...here it is... I am looking for an all around ice axe/tool that I can do general mountaineering across snow/glacier, vertical ice, and (especially) mixed alpine routes with. I have an SMC Himalayan ice axe (the really heavy, could-stop-a-bullet one) but I'm thinking for my ice and mixed routes, I'd like to get a pair of axes that would cover it all. I am definitely looking for a bent shaft, as I've experienced the knuckle beating you get with straight. Of course something with a shaft I can post enough for a self belay too...so a crazy handle like the Grivel monster would obviously be out. Anyway, if anyone could throw some input my way, it would be really helpful. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Justin
|
|
|
|
|
tuna
Jan 20, 2008, 2:31 AM
Post #2 of 42
(4943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 188
|
Grivel Taakoon ciao Santana
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Jan 20, 2008, 2:45 AM
Post #3 of 42
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
grivel matrix x
|
|
|
|
|
sky7high
Jan 20, 2008, 3:43 AM
Post #4 of 42
(4911 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 15, 2006
Posts: 478
|
I really have no idea, I don't climb ice, but I did see some of the features you want on the BD venom.
|
|
|
|
|
wallmonkey35
Jan 20, 2008, 4:11 AM
Post #5 of 42
(4898 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 102
|
Petzl Aztars, or for more mixed, go with the quarks.
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Jan 20, 2008, 4:15 AM
Post #6 of 42
(4896 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
Best all-purpose ice tool out there, IMHO, is the old version of the BD Cobra. I climb waterfall ice on Quarks, but wouldn't be all that thrilled to use them for alpine/glacier travel. I've no proof, but intuition says they wouldn't plunge for self-arrest quite as well. Knuckle bashing is a matter of technique more than much else.
|
|
|
|
|
summerprophet
Jan 20, 2008, 5:10 AM
Post #7 of 42
(4882 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2004
Posts: 764
|
Man, you are going to get ten replies with ten different answers with a question like that. Every tool is going to have its strengths and weaknesses, and a lot of that has to do with your preferences. When it comes to tools, one mans junk is another mans treasure. Anyways, toss my vote in for Black Prophets. (the only bent shaft tool I own though, so take that with a grain of salt)
|
|
|
|
|
gargrantuan
Jan 20, 2008, 6:13 PM
Post #8 of 42
(4832 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2005
Posts: 182
|
skidawg wrote: I am looking for an all around ice axe/tool that I can do general mountaineering across snow/glacier, vertical ice, and (especially) mixed alpine routes with. I have an SMC Himalayan ice axe (the really heavy, could-stop-a-bullet one) but I'm thinking for my ice and mixed routes, I'd like to get a pair of axes that would cover it all. I am definitely looking for a bent shaft, as I've experienced the knuckle beating you get with straight. Of course something with a shaft I can post enough for a self belay too...so a crazy handle like the Grivel monster would obviously be out. Anyway, if anyone could throw some input my way, it would be really helpful. you realize that is like asking 'is there a single ski that i could use for resorts, backcountry, powder, groomers, and hardpack that does all equally well?' most people have a few pairs of skis to choose from depending on conditions, ice tools and mountaineering axes are much the same. the next thing is that technical tools should never be purchased thinking 'will this thing plunge well on snow slogs?' because that is what mountaineering axes are for. buy you ice/mixed tools with the actual climbing you plan to do in mind. all that said, in my experience (and that is important to note) the petzl quarks and the bd cobras are the best all around kind of ice/mixed/alpine rigs. i have never used grivels but they look sweet, so i'd research them too. where they fail is on lower angle terrain or plunging for self belays, but that is precisely why mountaineering axes are around.
|
|
|
|
|
stefanohatari
Jan 20, 2008, 7:01 PM
Post #9 of 42
(4817 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2004
Posts: 88
|
How about the DMM Fly? Shaft curved for bulges, but straight enough to plunge. Long enough (barely) for self-arrest, but not too long for steep ice. I suspect it's a tool you can make work in all conditions, but it won't be ideal for any. And it's cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Jan 20, 2008, 7:15 PM
Post #10 of 42
(4807 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
Since you mentioned vertical ice and mixed you are going to need 2 tools. WHen I planned to do the cassin i decided to go with the BD cobra and the straight shaft carbon tool made by BD at that time..(can't remeber the name) Concept being that one tool might as well be an excellnt vertical ice tool because you don't use 2 tools for the general mountaineering stuff. after that you need a tool that can work on vertical ice and double as a general mountaineering axe.. straight shaft tools with little or no rubber grip work best for plunging and self arrest. A good straight shaft tool will climb vertical ice quite well if your technique is good.. but you have to get used to using it. We climbed ice a looooong time at high end levels with striaght tools before anyone ever made a bent shaft..heh.
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Jan 21, 2008, 3:09 AM
Post #11 of 42
(4762 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
I agree with reno. The 1st gen cobras are great tools for all around. The quarks are good too (you can put in the fang thing for pure steep ice days). Grivel makes a smattering of decent tools too, though I haven't used them. As tone poster said though. Most don't do it all well. You are asking for opposite ends of the spectrum. You will compromise somewhere. Pt
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Jan 21, 2008, 4:07 AM
Post #12 of 42
(4733 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
The old style cobras are prety cappy for general mountaineering.. don't plunge well in anything cept snow you don't need to plunge in anyway cause it's so soft. the best solution is two diff tools.. one excelent technical tool .. the second tool a straight shaft but still technical axe.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jan 21, 2008, 4:08 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Jan 21, 2008, 6:16 AM
Post #13 of 42
(4709 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
I would disagree about the cobra not plunging well, but everyone has an opinion. I don't like climbing steep ice with two different tools, but I also don't spend a lot of times on crevassed glaciers either. The two different tool recommends are fine, but there are better options than old style straight tools these days for a long plunging tool. Look at the BD venom or the grivel Air Tech Evo. Each gives a little more usefulness when you have to actually swing the axe. The grivel has a deployable pinky rest as well for better steep climbing. I think House/Anderson used a couple of these on Nanga parbat, but they had two shorties for the leader on the hard pitches. PT
|
|
|
|
|
hex
Jan 21, 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #14 of 42
(4693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 110
|
I hate the bump on the top of the DMM Flys! It makes it weird to hold if you have your hand on top of the axe head if you know what I mean. I'd say the Grivel Alpwings. Its a great alpine tool and has a nice swing for ice.
stefanohatari wrote: How about the DMM Fly? Shaft curved for bulges, but straight enough to plunge. Long enough (barely) for self-arrest, but not too long for steep ice. I suspect it's a tool you can make work in all conditions, but it won't be ideal for any. And it's cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Jan 22, 2008, 4:43 PM
Post #15 of 42
(4594 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
here's an uncoventional answer: bd viper.... i love the tool, and while in alaska a few summers ago had the privalege of chatting with some of the AMS fellows. one of whom, a long time guide, says he uses his vipers for just about everything but the slogs on denali for which he uses a single mtneering axe....
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jan 22, 2008, 10:53 PM
Post #16 of 42
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
altelis wrote: here's an uncoventional answer: bd viper.... i love the tool, ... Yeah, me too. This past weekend I had an opportunity to climb with the new orange-handled ones... Didn't like them so well. Admittedly, the climb was a little stout for a warm-up and I probably shouldn't have been using unfamiliar tools on it, but they swing nothing like my Vipers, which seem to climb themselves. Perhaps I'll have to give the new style another try sometime in the near future... after my knuckles have healed up!
|
|
|
|
|
dps
Jan 23, 2008, 12:52 AM
Post #17 of 42
(4508 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2005
Posts: 116
|
stymingersfink wrote: Yeah, me too. This past weekend I had an opportunity to climb with the new orange-handled ones... Didn't like them so well. Admittedly, the climb was a little stout for a warm-up and I probably shouldn't have been using unfamiliar tools on it, but they swing nothing like my Vipers, which seem to climb themselves. It's funny, because I thought the old Vipers were one of the worst modern tools I've swung. Too heavy, poor balance, etc.. I actually think the new Vipers are decent. That said, the new Cobras are the first BD tool I've really really liked. It's all personal preference.
(This post was edited by dps on Jan 23, 2008, 12:53 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 23, 2008, 6:13 AM
Post #18 of 42
(4468 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I liked the new Vipers a lot. They are just a little light so they bounce out if you hit some dense or cold ice more often. I'd probably get a pair if I dropped my tools in a river.
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Jan 23, 2008, 3:27 PM
Post #19 of 42
(4423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
I thought the new Vipers are way too light for my taste. I think they're better suited to smaller climbers who don't or can't swing a heavier tool all day. I prefer the swing and weight of the Quarks, Cobras, or Nomics. That's just me, though.
|
|
|
|
|
brokenankle
Jan 23, 2008, 4:38 PM
Post #20 of 42
(4398 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 50
|
Ill vote for my CAMP Awax tools. Super lightweight, smooth plunging but still high clearance shaft, optional pinky rest for steep ice days . .. I love them. And they were cheap! http://www.camp-usa.com/...uct/detail.asp?ID=69
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Jan 23, 2008, 5:22 PM
Post #22 of 42
(4375 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
cliffhanger9 wrote: reno wrote: Best all-purpose ice tool out there, IMHO, is the old version of the BD Cobra. Hey Jeff - Your post caught my attention because I've been considering a set of the new Cobras myself. Curious as to why you say the old version? Have you tried the new version and found reason to like the old ones better? If so what features particularly? Hey, Dan. Long time, no chat. I hope things are well. I made my suggestion based on the "all purpose" concept. Most folks agree that there is no "one-size-fits-all" ice tool out there, considering the wide variety of climbing that could be grouped under "ice climbing." Glaciers, moderate angle mountaineering, steep water ice, thin alpine ice, overhanging mixed rock/ice.... each is it's own discipline, and each has tools optimal for that job. Now, removing overhanging/mixed stuff, and only considering the rest, I go with the old Cobras. Mostly straight shaft for self-arrest and balancing while walking (ala old school mountaineering axe,) but enough clearance for bulges on water ice, and lightweight enough for long alpine routes. The new Cobras, which I've only used on a couple short pitches in the Ouray Ice Park (so, admittedly, my take on them might change if I had more experience with them), have a bit more curve to the shaft, have those annoying pinky/finger rests, and don't strike me as quite as well suited for glacier or mountaineering use as the old Cobras. Probably better for water ice, though.
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhanger9
Moderator
Jan 23, 2008, 5:48 PM
Post #23 of 42
(4367 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 2275
|
reno wrote: cliffhanger9 wrote: reno wrote: Best all-purpose ice tool out there, IMHO, is the old version of the BD Cobra. Hey Jeff - Your post caught my attention because I've been considering a set of the new Cobras myself. Curious as to why you say the old version? Have you tried the new version and found reason to like the old ones better? If so what features particularly? Hey, Dan. Long time, no chat. I hope things are well. I made my suggestion based on the "all purpose" concept. Most folks agree that there is no "one-size-fits-all" ice tool out there, considering the wide variety of climbing that could be grouped under "ice climbing." Glaciers, moderate angle mountaineering, steep water ice, thin alpine ice, overhanging mixed rock/ice.... each is it's own discipline, and each has tools optimal for that job. Now, removing overhanging/mixed stuff, and only considering the rest, I go with the old Cobras. Mostly straight shaft for self-arrest and balancing while walking (ala old school mountaineering axe,) but enough clearance for bulges on water ice, and lightweight enough for long alpine routes. The new Cobras, which I've only used on a couple short pitches in the Ouray Ice Park (so, admittedly, my take on them might change if I had more experience with them), have a bit more curve to the shaft, have those annoying pinky/finger rests, and don't strike me as quite as well suited for glacier or mountaineering use as the old Cobras. Probably better for water ice, though. Gotcha - thanks. Not to steal the OPs thunder or anything - just curious and with the new Cobras out now, thought perhaps others might be interested to hear the advantages of the old ones over the new ones, since it can sometimes be a misconception that newer is always better. In this case it seems the reference is merely towards the all-purposeness of the tool. I think my curiosity in the mention of the old vs new Cobras veiled the "all purpose" concept and I was thinking about their performance on WI!
|
|
|
|
|
paintrain
Jan 24, 2008, 5:48 PM
Post #24 of 42
(4281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
|
I own a pair of the old cobras and nomics. I have climbed a good number of times with the new cobras. Why I like the old ones - 1. heavier - less work to get good sticks. 2. geometry better fits my swing 3. the plunge easily. 4. The hammer and adze are usable, not just cosmetic Why I don't like the old ones. 1. too light -takes me 3x as many swings as my old cobras for a good stick (I have climbed with one in each hand). 2. pick angle is just a little off (could exacerbate #1). The new ones are beautiful to look at. I would hang them on my wall, but prefer other tools to climb with. pt
|
|
|
|
|
brent_e
Jan 24, 2008, 8:39 PM
Post #25 of 42
(4250 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 5111
|
paintrain wrote: I would disagree about the cobra not plunging well, but everyone has an opinion. I don't like climbing steep ice with two different tools, but I also don't spend a lot of times on crevassed glaciers either. The two different tool recommends are fine, but there are better options than old style straight tools these days for a long plunging tool. Look at the BD venom or the grivel Air Tech Evo. Each gives a little more usefulness when you have to actually swing the axe. The grivel has a deployable pinky rest as well for better steep climbing. I think House/Anderson used a couple of these on Nanga parbat, but they had two shorties for the leader on the hard pitches. PT here is the gear house used. hhttp://ttp:/.../watch?v=oIkmYiwbZWg the grivel's can have a slider on them that makes it easier to climb vertical ice but will plunge well with it slid up. i've never used this setup, but steve house and anderson are superstars. Brent
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|