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joeforte
Feb 5, 2008, 5:31 PM
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Ok so my girlfriend and I are tired of carrying our 2 10.5mm ropes around. We are going to buy a set of doubles. We will be mostly using them for multipitch trad, with the occasional alpine jaunt (ice and snow). I was going to buy a pair of Excellence 8.6mm, but I figured I'd ask if there were any better sets out there for our needs.
Also, is dry treatment worthwhile if we're going to be using them on a lot of rock? Will it just wear away after a few trips, or is it fairly durable?
(This post was edited by joeforte on Feb 5, 2008, 5:34 PM)
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madrock
Feb 5, 2008, 7:05 PM
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I would suggest going to a set of twin ropes (approx 8mm). You can manage them in the same way you do a single rope (clipped together) and will give you some experience before having to handle two ropes and the alternate clipping involved with douple ropes (approx 9mm). The terminology is often mixed up and used for either type but some skinny ropes are designed and tested to use in pairs and some are for use clipping them alternatly. Hope this does not make things more confusing for you. PM me if you need more help or a clearer explanation.
Joe
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madrock
Feb 5, 2008, 7:08 PM
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Oh Yea, most twins and doubles are produced with a dry treatment for mountaineering and ice climbing. It wont be needed for rock but you are more likely to find a great deal on a dry rope and might not even be able to find a standard finished model.
Joe
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cameltoe
Feb 5, 2008, 7:17 PM
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For me, hands down the best ropes I have used as doubles are the Genesis.. an abslutely fantastic rope..
i remember days otu at stannage where the confusion became as 5or 6parties in a row were using the same rope set..
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cracklover
Feb 5, 2008, 7:29 PM
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I use and like the Mammut Genesis a lot also.
Know a number of folks who are very happy with Sterling doubles.
GO
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yokese
Feb 5, 2008, 7:35 PM
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But the problem with twins is that they generate higher impact forces than singles and doubles, don't they?.
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wmfork
Feb 5, 2008, 7:55 PM
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Over doubles? Yes, Over singles? Not really.
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saxfiend
Feb 5, 2008, 8:16 PM
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cracklover wrote: I use and like the Mammut Genesis a lot also.
As to getting twins instead of doubles, I don't buy the argument made by the previous poster. Doubles technique really isn't difficult to learn, and alternate clipping gives you a lot of advantages (minimizing rope drag, for example) that you'll lose if you're using twins.
JL
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dingus
Feb 5, 2008, 8:19 PM
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I've used 8.1 mm doubles for more than a decade, treat em as a twin or a single for themajority of clips.
Its been a good compromise for me. I only use em when appropriate, perfer single cord for cragging etc.
DMT
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yokese
Feb 5, 2008, 8:22 PM
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wmfork wrote: Over doubles? Yes, Over singles? Not really.
Interestingly, I just found this post by sterlingjim showing that doubles don't necessarily have such as big advantage over simples as I thought...
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wmfork
Feb 5, 2008, 9:03 PM
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Hmm, I bet rope A was a Beal Ice line, which is what I have. Interesting that it's the only rope w/ higher impact force than rated (though still the lowest of the group). Still, this does not show the impact force of a common lower factor fall.
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rgold
Feb 5, 2008, 10:16 PM
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Although it is unlikely doubles (meaning half ropes) will provide lower impacts in test situations, there is a decent chance that in many climbing situations, you will get lower impacts, and I think this accounts for what seems to be a nearly universal perception.
The reason you may experience lower impacts in practice is related to the friction reduction ability of double ropes clipped appropriately (which is not necessarily alternately). With each strand running in a straighter line than would be possible with a single rope, there is less biner friction. The effect of biner friction is to essentially "shorten" the rope, making less of it available for full energy absorbtion, with the result that there is an effective fall factor greater than the H/L calculation (because H has stayed the same and L is effectively less). To the extent that double ropes mitigate this effect, they can provide lower impacts, even though they perform more or less the same in head-to-head testing.
At least that's what I think.
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sspssp
Feb 5, 2008, 11:14 PM
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Perhaps you already have, but if you haven't, you should do a search on the pros and cons of climbing with doubles. This has been well debated and I don't want to start it again, but it is worth thinking about.
I generally go with the lightest set of doubles I can find. The whole idea being to save weight. They will tend to wear out faster. You can find ropes that are rated for both twin and double use, perhaps not a bad option.
For that matter there is at least one rope (the Joker) that is rated for twin/double/single. It is heaver than most twin/doubles but it is a nice option, especially if you decide down the road that twins/doubles are not worthe the hassle.
My impression is that the standard dry treatment wears off pretty fast, but, if you believe the hype, it is supposedly getting better.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Feb 5, 2008, 11:14 PM)
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stymingersfink
Feb 6, 2008, 12:43 AM
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yeah, well, another here for the Beal 8.1mm Icelines, but a few caveats as well:
Use them for a couple of seasons on the ice before demoting them to your summer rock rope. Yes, the DWR will tend to wear off, your rope will get fuzzy, it will absorb more h2o.
Yes, they will wear faster than your 10.2 rope will... there's simply less surface area to spread the wear over, so it's not surprising that this occurs. The single-pict overlay on the sheath makes them slick as snot in the beginning, which is nice for some things, but for sheath durability it ain't.
When pulling your ropes down after a full-length rap, you'll notice that friction at the knot wears the sheath much faster if it's being pulled over rock vs. ice.
They're fricking ex-pen-sive... Especially when you consider that you've got to purchase two of them to make a whole rope! Your pocketbook will hate you, but if you give one to your wife for Valentine's Day (and she gives you one as well), it's probably less expensive than buying diamonds. Certainly less than buying diamonds AND a set of ropes.
rgold's appraisal of the friction/ff reducing qualities of double-ropes clipped appropriately is spot on, IMHO.
My third set of Icelines are ready to be demoted to rock ropes, so for the next ice season I'll be climbing on a new set(!). This is both good and bad for the reasons outlined above.
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vegastradguy
Feb 6, 2008, 1:34 AM
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bluewater's excellence lines are just that- excellent. i beat the crap out of mine for 3 years before retiring them sort of by accident- i just got a new rope to review and never got around to climbing on them again. i still use them for trail lines, and like them so much for that duty, i'll drop the coin on them again when they finally need it.
for reference- i climbed on them for 3 years, once a week, probably 40 weeks a year, almost always grade III or bigger. after that, each one has probably spent 20 weeks a year as a trail line on grade III or bigger. one has a tiny bit of fuzz on it at the 15m mark on one side, the other is still pristine.
they handle great too- the hand is better than any other double rope i've ever tried or checked out.
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joeforte
Feb 6, 2008, 3:12 AM
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Thank you vegastradguy, I'm thinking we are going to buy a set of excellence ropes.
Oh and BTW, I already know double rope technique, and have no desire to ever climb with twin technique.
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billcoe_
Feb 6, 2008, 3:55 PM
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yokese wrote: rgold wrote: At least that's what I think. And, once again, I totally agree with you. I'm seriously thinking on stop writing posts and just cite yours
Yup.
BTW, I'd look at the Metolius 7.8 Monster ropes. They have a great marking system, and are the lightest rated for both doubles and twins out there.
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gargrantuan
Feb 6, 2008, 4:50 PM
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another vote for blue water's excellence 8.6mm ropes. i have been using them for trad, alpine, and ice for the last six months and have been very impressed. watch the rope stretch though.
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vegastradguy
Feb 6, 2008, 5:39 PM
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gargrantuan wrote: another vote for blue water's excellence 8.6mm ropes. i have been using them for trad, alpine, and ice for the last six months and have been very impressed. watch the rope stretch though.
yeah, they are gooey, i'll give 'em that!
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tkambitsch
Mar 1, 2008, 4:35 PM
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I came across this thread looking for reviews or comments about the Metolius 7.8 monster rope (rated for both half and twin). I've not found any other comments, but this thread did give me some good insights, and prompts me to ask what you all think about my logic of why I would want to buy dual rated (twin/half) ropes.
Like the original poster my partner and I would love to save some weight on multipitch routes. Plus it always seems a pain for the leader (always me) to simply drag a second rope or my partner to try and carry it in a day pack. But here is our unique situation.
We have 9 years of experience climbing together but we are neither strong nor are we aggressive. We enjoy 5.3 to 5.8 climbs and I tend to sew those routes up more than most. My partner is a big guy who often weighs in at over 240 lbs. and never leads.
So here is my logic: Since I rarely push much past my protection I am not very likely to have very high fall forces (once I get past that second piece) I could probably get by with twin techniques on fairly straightforward routes, with the half rope technique used on wandering routes.
My greater concern is of my partner coming off the ground or off that next ledge on those easy routes. I try to keep a tight leash on him at the start of each pitch since he can easily stretch out a wandering single rope by 20 ft. We often joke that he always free solos a good part of his climbs! So I am thinking that a twin rope situation would be an advantage with a shorter elongation. Half rope climbing could also reduce his "danger zone" by enabling straighter rope lines that would allow me to keep a tighter grip on him. And finally, the advantage of half rope climbing on traverses just make it all the more advantageous than our current single rope strategy.
Is there merit to my logic?
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joeforte
Mar 2, 2008, 4:07 AM
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I think half rope technique could help your rope-stretch issue a ton. I don't think there are many merits to twin technique on rock at all. I think it's main advantage comes into play only when you are swinging sharp objects around, and kicking crampons in below you.
You might want to reconsider the 7.8s though. Durability is going to be reduced a lot, especially if you think you might have a large man hanging from them.
BTW, I went with the Mammut Genesis ropes. They are one of the heavier doubles around (49gm/meter is still WAY lighter than singles), but I've read a lot of great reviews on them, and they seem to be the most durable. 49% of the rope structure is in the sheath if I recall correctly, which is a huge plus for me. I'll gladly carry a few extra ounces for the long term durability gained.
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