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ahimsa
Feb 16, 2008, 3:45 PM
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Hey, I am doing a senior thesis on the viability of guiding as a full time career. One of the questions i have come across is whether or not there are any areas where guides, or guided parties are required to have a certain minimum of AMGA certified guides. I was wondering if anyone knew of examples of this. I believe i heard there was such a restriction at the New but i don't know where i can find information on it. Locations for governmental sites talking about this or other cites would be particuraly helpful. Thanks a lot.
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jt512
Feb 16, 2008, 6:02 PM
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rgold wrote: ahimsa wrote: One of the questions i have come across is whether or not there are any areas where guides, or guided parties are required to have a certain minimum of AMGA certified guides. I was wondering if anyone knew of examples of this. The Mohonk Preserve, where much of Shawangunk climbing is located, has such a policy, see http://www.mohonkpreserve.org/...climbing_instruction The Mohonk Preserve does allow guides who work for guide services approved by the Preserve to guide without AMGA certification, but the organization itself must be AMGA-certified and the guide does have to have a NYS license and appropriate first-aid training. Visiting guides (ones not employed by one of the approved guide services) and individual guides seeking Preserve approval have to have AMGA certification.
I think this is true in Joshua Tree, too.
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jp_sucks
Feb 16, 2008, 6:04 PM
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You must be ACMG certified to guide in any of the National Parks in Canada (pretty much all of the Canadian Rockies).
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ahimsa
Feb 16, 2008, 8:47 PM
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thanks, these have been really helpful so far in getting me on my way. JP Sucks, do guides have to to be full IFMGA guides, or just have any ACMG cert., I'm asking this question under the assumption that there are different levels of certification like the AMGA
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crankingclimber
Feb 16, 2008, 9:15 PM
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At least one guide on every trip at the New has to be AMGA certified, or equivalent. Supposedly soon all guides will have to be AMGA or equivalent. Overall it's bullshit. The AMGA itself certainly has its problems, but I can see why some people might like it (not myself).
But the way it's ran in the Gorge is certainly horseshit. The 'Equivalent' status was granted by the park service to such groups as the 'Appalachian Bible College' who only manage to keep people alive through divine intervension, certainly not guiding skills. But, equivalent status was denied to climbing guiding companies in the area who had experienced guides and in total decades worth of experience. Many other examples of crap as well. But, this is getting off topic...
And yes, you can definitely survive as a guide, depending on how you want to live. You could work a busy season at the New, say, and survive for most or all of the rest of the year living cheap and climbing.
Will
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ahimsa
Feb 16, 2008, 9:26 PM
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That's interesting, and i'm glad to get a different opinion of the AMGA, do you have or know of any sources i could use for the debate on the Gorge that you where talking about.
As far as survivng, i know this can be done as i see people doing it every time i go to the cliffs, and it is what i hope to do for a little while. I am hoping to find out though if it is possible to do so for a life time, with needed amenities like health insurance and retierment. From what i have seen so far this is very hard to do in America.
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flamer
Feb 16, 2008, 9:41 PM
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ahimsa wrote: I am hoping to find out though if it is possible to do so for a life time, with needed amenities like health insurance and retierment.
There is an old joke that sums up your question nucely.....
What's the difference bewteen a Mountain guide and an 18" pizza?
The Pizza can feed a family of four!
On a more serious note, the AMGA has alot of BS assoiated with it.
I know folks who'd been guiding for years and "failed" their Rock guide certification course. Not because they didn't know what they were doing, but because the AMGA will only allow a certain number of folks who take the certification to pass. This is something they pay quite a bit of money to do, and even if highly quaiified and they preform(ed) well, they might not recieve their cert.
The AMGA is all about making money and politics. Not always about who is qualified.
Also in National parks you have to have the "consession" to legally guide in individual parks.
That being 1(sometimes 2) guide service's have the "venders permit" to provide guiding service's in individual NP's.
josh
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jp_sucks
Feb 17, 2008, 6:15 PM
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You don't need to be a full IFMGA Guide but must be certified in the appropriate discipline you're guiding. There's definitely some leeway allowed if you're working under a full guide though.
The AMGA is based on the ACMG's model. They basically redid the AMGA's entire model a few years back and copied the Canadian system so that they could be recognized by the UIAGM/IFMGA. They're virtually identical now.
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ja1484
Feb 17, 2008, 6:33 PM
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flamer wrote: ahimsa wrote: I am hoping to find out though if it is possible to do so for a life time, with needed amenities like health insurance and retierment. There is an old joke that sums up your question nucely..... What's the difference bewteen a Mountain guide and an 18" pizza? The Pizza can feed a family of four! On a more serious note, the AMGA has alot of BS assoiated with it. I know folks who'd been guiding for years and "failed" their Rock guide certification course. Not because they didn't know what they were doing, but because the AMGA will only allow a certain number of folks who take the certification to pass. This is something they pay quite a bit of money to do, and even if highly quaiified and they preform(ed) well, they might not recieve their cert. The AMGA is all about making money and politics. Not always about who is qualified. Also in National parks you have to have the "consession" to legally guide in individual parks. That being 1(sometimes 2) guide service's have the "venders permit" to provide guiding service's in individual NP's. josh
Certain amount of truth to this. I've run into a couple AMGA certed folks (or so they claimed) while climbing who generally seemed to know what they were doing, but relied quite a bit on knowledge/technique that was about 5-10 years outdated.
In any case, the AMGA's requirements never impressed me, and I think there's plenty of information available through lower cost channels (books, internet, etc) where a motivated climber can self educate to a level of competency well beyond anything the AMGA will give you. A lot of the best guiding services in history never had any cert - they were just run by experienced climbers whose reputation alone was all that was needed.
I also like what Bruce Smith of OnRope1 has to say about "certification":
http://www.onrope1.com/Certification.htm
Many folks toss the word “Certified” around like they truly understand it. Many folks ask to be “Certified” performers –doing things like attempting to be a “Certified Rappeller”, or a “Certified Rope Technician” or a “Certified Rescuer.”
Webster states it pretty clearly:
1. To attest as certain. give reliable information of; confirm.
2. To assure or inform with certainty.
3. To guarantee; endorse reliably.
4. To guarantee in writing.
5. To give assurance.
This clearly states that if someone is certified, someone guarantees that you will ALWAYS make the right decisions and do the right thing. Who will guarantee that you will always do the right thing? Answer: as I see it, No one with any sense! Being certified is a topic that needs addressing almost daily in our business. Someone wants someone else to guarantee they have good judgment.
Case in point: I got involved with a $13.5 million wrongful death lawsuit a few years ago. The “Certified Rope Technician” on the scene with over 1000 hours of training watched a worker fall to his death after attempting to help that worker who had fallen and was hanging by his dorsal attachment in his full body harness. The video of the scene showed the rescuer never attempted any orthodox rescue technique taught, published or that anyone would consider viable during the 45 minutes he attempted to pull the man to safety.
So Who Can “Certify”?
The NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) says the only person who can give someone these credentials (in our world) is the person representing the Agency Having Jurisdiction (AHJ)--Typically your boss! This also means that if you move you may have to recertify all over again with a new boss. NFPA and other professional groups are very clear that your instructor cannot certify you. It must be a separate evaluation person or panel that determines someone’s skills.
This process needs to be repeated and verified at regular intervals to insure someone’s skills are current. There are procedures like medical techniques or levels of medical proficiency like CPR that are certified, but even these need to be reexamined and passed annually.
Certification is not something that is available on any street corner. Real Certification is really expensive. Ask companies who are ISO 9001 Certified or ask someone how much they pay for product liability insurance. The best that most people can do is receive a certificate (like a diploma) that states at this moment in time you knew enough and demonstrated enough skill to receive this piece of paper that says you may have done it right “once”. In the end, I typically distrust people who routinely brag about their certifications or diplomas in their “Achievement File”. Actions and the demonstration of competent skills is more telling of someone’s ability than any piece of paper.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Feb 17, 2008, 6:38 PM)
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