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acorneau
Apr 1, 2008, 5:44 PM
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billl7 wrote: . There was an anguished "Shit!" (or similar) followed by silence. The tragedy was that the knots passed through the rap device (biner assembly?). A figure-8 could pass knots, especially if they were simple overhands.
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majid_sabet
Apr 1, 2008, 5:52 PM
Post #52 of 68
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CaptainPolution wrote: majid_sabet wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: majid_sabet wrote: camhead wrote: dlintz wrote: Seriously? I think the biggest problem would be your "big locker" zipping at you (and possibly others) from 50 meters up as you pulled your line. d. what in the hell are you talking about? never seen a rope coming down on your face ? now add another fat biner to the end of it. your posts make me go duhh duhhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you dont make any sense. why would there be another biner to the end of the rope? how would you pull it through?!??! you wouldnt. dummy assuming this guys is doing what I am thinking, you use a smaller size cord with a regular size rope. you tie a knot and a biner and leave it in the rap hanger. you rap down and pull the smaller size cord with a biner. Biner is just to secure that knot so it does not pass thru the rap hanger while rapping. does it now make sense ? you said at the end of the rope there would be the biner. I knew what you meant but still the biner wouldnt be "falling" for more than like ten feet. so I don't see a problem to this unless you are afraid of a biner falling two feet onto you This is what I think the other guy is talking about but not for 10 meter rap. This like for full 60 or 70 meter rap using 4-5 mm cord. [URL=http://imageshack.us]
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CaptainPolution
Apr 1, 2008, 7:16 PM
Post #53 of 68
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majid_sabet wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: majid_sabet wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: majid_sabet wrote: camhead wrote: dlintz wrote: Seriously? I think the biggest problem would be your "big locker" zipping at you (and possibly others) from 50 meters up as you pulled your line. d. what in the hell are you talking about? never seen a rope coming down on your face ? now add another fat biner to the end of it. your posts make me go duhh duhhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you dont make any sense. why would there be another biner to the end of the rope? how would you pull it through?!??! you wouldnt. dummy assuming this guys is doing what I am thinking, you use a smaller size cord with a regular size rope. you tie a knot and a biner and leave it in the rap hanger. you rap down and pull the smaller size cord with a biner. Biner is just to secure that knot so it does not pass thru the rap hanger while rapping. does it now make sense ? you said at the end of the rope there would be the biner. I knew what you meant but still the biner wouldnt be "falling" for more than like ten feet. so I don't see a problem to this unless you are afraid of a biner falling two feet onto you This is what I think the other guy is talking about but not for 10 meter rap. This like for full 60 or 70 meter rap using 4-5 mm cord. [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/806/47834484hn3.jpg[/IMG] even on a full rap it still probably wont be an issue. its not going to sail 70 feet onto you.
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sungam
Apr 1, 2008, 11:14 PM
Post #54 of 68
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Dude,that is ridiculous. Why would you rely completely on the fact that the biner couldn't fit through the anchor? It's clearly obvious that you should tie the ropes as usual, but have the biner clove-hitched near the end of the red rope, and clipped to the blue one, rapping on the blue. that way there is absolutely no possibility of the biner popping through the rap anchors. (EG rapping off a tree etc. your way just wouldn't work.) For the volume of posts you lay out, a whole lot of them seem to be half thought through armchair ideas without considerations of all factors. Not a dig at you, but maybe you should think twice before posting half thought through information trying to help people. What's more dangerous, careful and diligent made-up-on-the-spot rig, or false confidence in the made-up-in-the-armchair rig? peace, -MagnuS
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majid_sabet
Apr 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
Post #55 of 68
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sungam wrote: Dude,that is ridiculous. Why would you rely completely on the fact that the biner couldn't fit through the anchor? It's clearly obvious that you should tie the ropes as usual, but have the biner clove-hitched near the end of the red rope, and clipped to the blue one, rapping on the blue. that way there is absolutely no possibility of the biner popping through the rap anchors. (EG rapping off a tree etc. your way just wouldn't work.) For the volume of posts you lay out, a whole lot of them seem to be half thought through armchair ideas without considerations of all factors. Not a dig at you, but maybe you should think twice before posting half thought through information trying to help people. What's more dangerous, careful and diligent made-up-on-the-spot rig, or false confidence in the made-up-in-the-armchair rig? peace, -MagnuS Mr Perfect Knot is a knot so what difference does it make to have CH or fig 8 or any other knot to keep the BLUE biner ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 1, 2008, 11:24 PM)
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sungam
Apr 2, 2008, 11:09 AM
Post #56 of 68
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majid_sabet wrote: Mr Perfect Knot is a knot so what difference does it make to have CH or fig 8 or any other knot to keep the BLUE biner ? sorry but wtf does that mean? The ropes should be tied together using a backed-up EDK, there should be a biner attached the the red rope with a clove hitch. it should then be clipped to the blue on the outside of the anchor, meaning that when you pull on the blue, it tightens like a slipknot around the anchor, thus being unable to pass throught the anchor. If you just used a biner attached between the ropes in the hope that it will not be able to pass through the anchor biner/rings/whatever is simple foolish. Also how the hell is a knot a knot? pure tie in with a clove hitch around your belay loop, aye? what a load of greasy pish. -MagnuS
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reno
Apr 2, 2008, 1:01 PM
Post #57 of 68
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majid_sabet wrote: Knot is a knot so what difference does it make to have CH or fig 8 or any other knot to keep the BLUE biner ? You're supposed to be some kind of SAR/Rope rescue expert, right? And you don't know the difference between a Clove Hitch and a Figure 8 knot? Wow.
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Climbnkev
Apr 2, 2008, 3:05 PM
Post #58 of 68
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With big differences in rope diameters I usually use a EDK with an overhand snugged up to the EDK on the tail of the skinny rope. You can make a blocking knot or BFK(big fking knot) by tying a EDK with an extra twist, like a double fishermens with both ends on the same side. This usually is enough to keep the knot from passing through the anchor and keep from using a carabiner. I like the tie into the anchor with the 5mm idea...I have also found that if you use an autoblock you can rappell normally with the knot on the lead rope side without much slippage, but I will usually tye into the tag line just in case. The extra long tag line is key...I learned that one the hard way.....
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scotchie
Apr 2, 2008, 4:13 PM
Post #59 of 68
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leedaclimber wrote: Background: I have always found carrying a second rope up a multi pitch climb simply for rappelling to be heavy and inconvenient. Question: I was thinking of lighter alternatives but haven't tried this yet. How about just carrying 60m of 1in tubular webbing instead of a second rope? Here's how i would try it: Suppose you're trying to rappell a few pitches on ring anchors belay stations that are 50m apart (many routes like crimson chrysalis at Red Rocks have this). I would tie both the rope and webbing to a big locking biner and single line rappel the rope. The big locker would stop the rope from slipping through the ring anchors. after my rappel I would pull the webbing to retrieve my rope. Has anyone tried anything like this? The biggest problem i can think of is if the rope gets stuck. Then you're left with nothing but webbing in your hands- yikes! But assuming you can retrieve the rope successfully this technique with the webbing should work, right? Have any of you guys either tried this or found another trick to not carrying 2 full size ropes? You just (roughly) described a well-established canyoneering technique called a "biner block". http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php http://www.canyonwiki.com/...dex.php/'biner_block http://www.canyoneering.net/.../showthread.php?t=58
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majid_sabet
Apr 2, 2008, 5:58 PM
Post #60 of 68
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reno wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Knot is a knot so what difference does it make to have CH or fig 8 or any other knot to keep the BLUE biner ? You're supposed to be some kind of SAR/Rope rescue expert, right? And you don't know the difference between a Clove Hitch and a Figure 8 knot? Wow. Dingus says;
In reply to: Majid is the Zeus of Trolls here.... you can have a rope through a pully dig (insert Majid drawing here)? And on one side you can have all the mods and trolls of rc.com a-pullin on that rope. On the other side is Majid, Zeus of Trolls... (force arrows indicate direction of pulls) Majid will lift them all off the floor - every time. That's not a gang-up dude, that's a gang BANG. DMT
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leedaclimber
Apr 2, 2008, 9:45 PM
Post #61 of 68
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scotchie- thx for the links! the explanations with pics are very helpful!
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billl7
Apr 6, 2008, 2:05 PM
Post #62 of 68
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In reply to: One other thought - possible it was mentioned: Sometimes, the last person to rap will stop somewhat below the rap ledge and bring the knot down past any potential sticking points ... and then continue rapping (a technique requiring some familiarity. With a skinny rope and a thicker rope, the thicker rope will be pulled downward with the person rapping until the knot is carried back up against the anchor. We've had this happen a time or two. Edit: Found a way around the rising-knot problem by increasing the friction on the skinny line. Attach one end of a sling to the harness. Attach a biner to the other end. Attach the skinny line to the biner with a munter hitch; rap with both lines through the rap device and with the muntered biner trailing above. Kept the knot from rising back up on a recent rap. Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 20, 2008, 3:46 AM)
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austin.timm
Apr 6, 2008, 4:16 PM
Post #63 of 68
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dingus wrote: Wouldn't want to use doubles for extensive aiding on a wall either, the tanglefucks are bad enough as it is. HA HA no doubt, but you're not opposed to double ropes on a particularly screwed up pitch of aid are you?
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tradrenn
Apr 7, 2008, 12:58 AM
Post #64 of 68
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leedaclimber wrote: scotchie- thx for the links! the explanations with pics are very helpful! Matt I think you should be using this method: also: do consider using 2 biners on your ATC, it will give you extra friction and trust me on it, you will need it. 2nd also: I also think you should reconsider healyje's post.
healyje wrote: Thinking 'outside the box' is typically encouraged, but in climbing the 'box' is fairly well-bounded by decades of experience and the failed trials of many folks who were a bit too clever, bold, and / or desperate. It's also a good idea to examine what is currently 'in the box' before going outside of it. Ideas like 1" webbing are probably jumping the gun a bit. It's also good to know where ideas come from - like carrying a 5-7mm second line most likely hails from big wall denizens. And if you are a beginner or intermediate climber it might be best to 'stay in the box' relative to such techniques and stick with more traditional solutions to the problem / issue at hand. In this case I'd say most folks who deal with this issue in places like Red Rock climb on skinny twins where you clip both ropes into each piece. My twins are 7.8s and can be used as both twins and doubles/half ropes. Twins is probably more the direction I'd recommend you consider before messing around with 5-7mm lines.
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Apr 7, 2008, 1:00 AM)
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oldsalt
Apr 7, 2008, 2:10 AM
Post #65 of 68
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My system: Simple, successful, but know the limits: 220 feet of 4mm cord stuffed into a mesh bag. The end is tied to a locker, which ends up at the top of the bag. I clip the locker to the draw string of the bag and then to my rear harness loop. When ready to do a rap greater than 1/2 of the rope length, I feed one end of the primary rope through the rap rings (etc) and tie into the locker with the 4mm tag line. I could use a large knot, tied rope to cord, but I feel more secure with the locker. The other end gets a stopper knot and is tossed over the face. I rap on the primary rope and allow the tag line to feed out of the bag as I descend. I have one less strand of rope to deal with - bad tosses, wind-blown tangles, etc. Once down, I undo the stopper knot in the primary rope and pull on the 4mm cord. This brings down the knot and locker first, followed by the rest of the trailing primary rope. If the locker manages to free-fall any distance, it is only a few feet and not an issue to the alert climber. Note: You cannot weight the 4mm in an emergency, or use it for any purpose other than I have specified, except non-weight bearing functions such as a messenger line or raising/lowering light loads. If you want to carry nothing that is not potentially weight bearing, you are back to at least 8mm and its corresponding weight and bulk.
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billl7
May 26, 2008, 3:56 PM
Post #66 of 68
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Something I've experienced this season: When pulling the skinny tag line, any friction from the larger rope running through the rings is sort of amplified at the point of hand-over-hand pulling of the skinny. I think gloves have been mentioned before to help this be less painful. Anyway ... I've also found that pulling through small diameter rings is way worse than fatter rings: painful to pull a 6 mm static line when the anchor has those little aluminun rap rings (even a pair of 'em); vastly easier if the anchor has, say, the extra fat chain links. In my opinion, the ring size makes enough difference that I might not take the tag line if I know there will be skinny rap rings (edit: unless I replace 'em). Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on May 26, 2008, 4:04 PM)
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the_climber
May 26, 2008, 4:41 PM
Post #67 of 68
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If we bring a skinny tag ling along we often times will also have a Jumar with us. Works great for pulling that skinny line down fast without the pain in the hand.
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billl7
May 26, 2008, 8:20 PM
Post #68 of 68
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Ah, but I don't believe I've ever even held a Jumar in my hands.
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