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praxiscor1
Apr 13, 2008, 8:38 PM
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Hi All,
I know that this has probably been brought up a million times, but I guess I wanted some NEW feedback. Last similiar post was in 2006.
I was using an ATC for some time, and then my buddy bought a GRi-GRi, we used it for awhile. I personally HATED it. There are just way to many situations where if the rope is not traveling FAST enough, it will not CATCH. I personally think an ATC is safer because you KNOW that YOU have to work it 100% of the time PERIOD. Basically, you KNOW that the belayer is paying attention because they have to. Where as the GRI-GRI is like (gee maybe I can pay attention, maybe not).
Anyways, I really liked the idea of the GRI-GRI so I tried to find a device that worked similarly but better. Well I found it, the completely idiot proof Faders SUM. This device is always, 100% constantly braking. That is what it does, it simply applies pressure to the rope . . . no matter what! The manufacturer says that the way it applies friction is also safer for the rope than the gri-gri? I dont get this, but okay. You could slip 1 foot, doesnt matter, it is applying braking. The faster you fall the more brake is applied. I have used it ALL last season 4-5 times a week, without a single problem.
The downside is that it is "safety" driven. It is ALWAYS catching and is VERY safe because of this fact, however it is kind of a bitch to feed slack through. So letting your partner down can be a little slow, but with practice it works in that capacity as well. Just wondering if I am missing something? Does anyone have any BAD experiences with the SUM? I guess I would like to hear the negatives, aside from feeding slack. Has anyone had a defective one? Dropped by user error, etc? Thanks
Colin
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mustclimb69
Apr 13, 2008, 8:46 PM
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Im not a gri-gri preacher but if used properly it will catch 100% of the time. I have seen and tested a grigri that has been welded shut so it does NOT cam. the friction lip, direction of the braking hand in relation to the device and force applied by the belayer is what you should rely on. the cam action is only an added bonus.
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maldaly
Apr 13, 2008, 9:33 PM
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Colin, you're walking a slippery slope when you say it's idiot proof. Next you'll be handing it to a beginner or someone who doesn't have their belay principles down pat and then you've set the stage for an injury.
NOTHING is idiot-proof.
The SUM/GriGri/Cinch and Eddy are not automatic devices. In fact, it's probably safer to assume that it takes a higher level of skill to operate this category of device than tube/slot style devices.
That said, the SUM is a fine belay device with a locking assist mechanism that can add confidence and convenience to your belay.
Climb safe,
Mal
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praxiscor1
Apr 13, 2008, 9:37 PM
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Thanks! I did a search, but maybe for the wrong phrase?
I will post on that thread, as to a permanent fix to the issue they found.
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jmvc
Apr 14, 2008, 9:16 AM
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I have never seen a gri gri fail to cam if the brake hand is being (even only slightly) held..
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billcoe_
Apr 14, 2008, 3:13 PM
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I own the Sum, an Edelrid Eddy and a Cinch. I've used a Gri-Gri plenty as my partners own them and they're everywhere.
The Cinch use to be my best friend and that idea was just reinforced yesterday. See, yesterday I before I went out, I couldn't find my Cinch. Looked everywhere, if you have my Cinch please return it. So I went out anyway, and took my Sum, it's a good little device, and lighter than the Eddy -but I hadn't been out with it for a long time as I prefer the Cinch. I tied off a tree above a route that needed gardening and sticker bush removal, and as I started making a few moves to get below the rope, BEFORE I could even get over the F*en edge on rap the damn thing had swiveled around on my biner and was STUCK in a (downward) bad position. (I have a new DMM Sentinal locker). I knew that the thing could do this and was paying attention, but it would end up doing it 2 more times before I could get over to the edge of the cliff, 15 feet across and over.
Until this thread, I'd totally forgotten about the rubber grommet thing mentioned on the other thread. So I thank you for bringing that up again.
Where can I get a rubber stopper you mention? Faders never mentioned one or contacted me about it, and I'd totally spaced till now cause I much prefer the Cinch as it's lighter and safer. My only issue is that on 10.5's, sometimes it just stops letting the rope through when you are rapping a single line. It literally has jammed. I'll wrap a prussic or unweight the device and push it into the downward position so it will release some line and then I'm going again. Otherwise, it's my best friend.
Sadly, my best friend is currently spaced out someplace and I'll need to buy a new one.
Edited to fix spelling issues.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Apr 14, 2008, 3:15 PM)
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shoo
Apr 14, 2008, 4:00 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: I own the Sum, an Edelrid Eddy and a Cinch. I've used a Gri-Gri plenty as my partners own them and they're everywhere.
Gear whore much?
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praxiscor1
Apr 14, 2008, 5:16 PM
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I honestly do not remember if the rubber stopper came in the package or not. I bought it at gear express. The guy I spoke to had included it when I bought it. I have had ZERO issues with it flipping around. But so far I have only used it top roping with the belayer anchored below. I always double check, and re-check everything. Actually as good practice, we always have every person we are climbing with, inspect + double check every biner, knot anchor etc, everytime we switch the climber. I actually keep a little pocket 20X scope, so I can occasionally re-inspect the anchors above. I guess in the end, the equipment is only as good as the monkey's using / inspecting them.
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billcoe_
Apr 14, 2008, 5:40 PM
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shoo wrote: billcoe_ wrote: I own the Sum, an Edelrid Eddy and a Cinch. I've used a Gri-Gri plenty as my partners own them and they're everywhere. Gear whore much?
Heh Heh. Oh it's a sickness fer sure:-) Thinking "Gearwhore" might have to be my new nick name now. Folks use to call me "Couchmaster" around here, but now I'm getting old and have to train to just get off the couch.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1118380;page=32;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Praxtor, did you see any indication on the Faders site that you MUST use this rubber stopper?
I must have missed it. I see people talking about using this for soloing and I'm thinking they're insane. The Sum has some big issues with orientation that are not present with the other devices. For Toprope belaying it's pretty casual cause you can just sit there and keep an eye on it, for anything else, it can get pretty sketch IMO.
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acorneau
Apr 15, 2008, 2:51 PM
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The gym where I climb is an all-Grigri gym, but they bought a Sum a few years ago to try it out and get everyone's opinions.
From what I remember, it was harder to pull the rope through the device (~10.5 gym rope) but easier to lower someone in a smooth fashion (due to more friction). Seemed to grab just fine, though.
Most folks didn't like it as much as the Grigri's (probably because of familiarity) so it was taken out of service.
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praxiscor1
Apr 15, 2008, 11:46 PM
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No I do not remember anything about it on the website, but somehow I ended up with it. I could not see using the SUM for Soloing, thats seems nuts to me also. But in the toprope belay scenario, I honestly have not found anything better. Even the rotating issue would be prevalent using an ATC, if you got yourself sideways, I am not sure what good any of these devices are going to be? You have ot be holding the rope in the appropriate direction and correct angle with an appropriate amount of force. Get sideways and doesnt all of that go out the window anyways?
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akimbo
Sep 29, 2009, 9:46 PM
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I know the post i am replying to is quite old, but I have some information I condider important and that I haven't found anywhere else on this forum.
I own a SUM for a few months now, and I absolutely love it. For sports climbing it is absolutely the best I have ever used. I don't have any problems with the rotating/carabiner thing mentioned elsewhere on this forum.
However, recently I noticed EXCESSIVE WEAR to the rope outlet on top of the device. This eats pieces of the mantle of m rope during lowering. I contacted faders and they acknowledge this problem on devices manufactured before 2005. They urged me NOT TO USE THE OLD MODEL ANYMORE.
I would recommend EVERYONE to check if they own such a old model. The new models have a triangular piece of stainless steel on top of the device at the point where the rope touches during lowering. See picture. If you don't have such a plate, contact the shop where you've bought your SUM.
A shop in Amsterdam (the Netherlands) sold me an old version only months ago. I hope this is an incident and that other shops have been better informed.
In my opinion the problem doesn't directly lead to dangerous situations, but it does increases the wear on your rope and could damage the mantle of our rope in case of a large fall.
I still love the sum and prefer it over the gri-gri and Cinch for it's ease of feeding rope to a leader. I will continue to use the new model SUM.
(edit: added picture)
(This post was edited by akimbo on Sep 29, 2009, 9:51 PM)
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stamplis
Sep 29, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Wow - thanks for confirming what I already knew! I've had the old-style one for a few years and have rappelled and lowered with it a few times. I became paranoid when I noticed it chewing up the sheathing on my ropes and stopped lowering with it. I still use it but only for belaying on aid routes...guess I've got a real excuse to return it at REI now!
(This post was edited by stamplis on Sep 29, 2009, 11:01 PM)
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billcoe_
Oct 1, 2009, 6:58 PM
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shoo wrote: billcoe_ wrote: I own the Sum, an Edelrid Eddy and a Cinch. I've used a Gri-Gri plenty as my partners own them and they're everywhere. Gear whore much?
Have to go with a BIG YES! to that question. Now I have 2 Cinches and a Gri Gri along with the Eddy and a Sum. The Sum has a lonely existence.
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