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thabadcharacter
Apr 17, 2008, 3:46 PM
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I remember seeing PTPP having a fairly in depth explanation of some preferred methods of 3 man team aiding efficiently, but can't seem to get the search to find it. Could someone enlighten me/point me in the right direction?
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moose_droppings
Apr 17, 2008, 4:09 PM
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thabadcharacter wrote: I remember seeing PTPP having a fairly in depth explanation of some preferred methods of 3 man team aiding efficiently, but can't seem to get the search to find it. Could someone enlighten me/point me in the right direction?
http://www.fishproducts.com/howto/howto.html
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 17, 2008, 6:59 PM
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thabadcharacter wrote: I remember seeing PTPP having a fairly in depth explanation of some preferred methods of 3 man team aiding efficiently, but can't seem to get the search to find it. Could someone enlighten me/point me in the right direction?
Tried a 3 man technique on my very first wall.
It did not go well.
lulz.
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socalclimber
Apr 17, 2008, 7:44 PM
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I would recommend you stick with the likes of Russ Walling/Fish and guys like Middendorf/Long. Pete's systems are a cluster fuck. Keep it simple.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 17, 2008, 7:45 PM)
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stymingersfink
Apr 17, 2008, 8:21 PM
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The day starts with breakfast, then the leader gets out on the sharp end. If they solo-lead it's kind of nice, but that's not required.
Leader (Climber 1) arrives at anchor, by which time the two down below have gotten things from b.fast packed up, haul bags ready to go. Leader sets the haul, pulls up about 10' of the static line to bring the line taut (tying it of to the anchor to b/u Climber 3's ride+jug) and facilitate an easier start to the hauling. Climber 3 attaches jugs (with both safeties clipped, mini-traxion optioinal as b/u) to the now-taut haul line, climber 2 sets a munter (or other belay device) to the long tail side, but as close to the haul as possible, clipping it to the anchor somewhere. Climber 2 now releases the mariner's hitch used to dock the bags and lowers the bag out with the long tail of the haul line being run through the belay device clipped to the anchor. When the bags are plumb, or the tail runs through the belay device, for Climber 2 it's now time to jug+clean.
Meanwhile, if leading in blocks, the leader will be advancing the high-point by solo-aiding, leaving their tag-line clipped from harness to anchor, their empty water bottle there too.
Climber 3 jugs the haul line and begins the haul.
Climber 2 jugs the lead line and cleans the pitch, then assists in the remainder of the haul.
Climber 1 keeps on moving.
Once Climber 2 arrives at the belay, they can shed the cleaning rack and give a hand to the haul. As soon as the bags arrive, fish out the water, refill the leader's water bottle, then tag the cleaned gear and fresh water to the leader. Place the leader on belay, then feed them the remainder of the lead rope (which has just been freed up by Climber 2) while they (the leader, Climber 1) pull the slack through their grigri. Re-attach the end of the lead line to the anchor, so that the leader can continue solo-aiding.
Dock the bags.
Now, if you're smart, you will have flagged the ledge on the haul line before lowering it out. This could be either below the rider (Climber 3), or right next to him. Regardless, since the ledge is already set up, you'll want to clip it to the current anchor, at which point climbers 2&3 will sit relatively comfortably for several hours while the line is extended.
Each climber should be interchangeable, but the rotation is: Climber 3 becomes climber 1, climber 2 becomes climber 3, climber 1 becomes climber 2. Got that?
So, if Climber 1 is done with the lead and it's time to swap, climber 3 will take up the sharp end solo-aiding, Climber 1&2 will do the haul (once climber 2 arrives at the anchor, that is), after which climber one will be the next cleaner, climber 2 will be the next pig-rider.
This system works incredibly well, as there's always someone moving, and for periods of time there's work being done in three locations.
It might take a day to get smooth with it, but if you stick to the schedule, someone's always got a series of rest period to look forward to before experiencing the psychologically damaging aspects of leading hauling.
Edit:
I had to tell the truth there at the end, otherwise it just wouldn't be fair. Hauling sucks.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Apr 17, 2008, 8:30 PM)
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moof
Apr 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
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Registered: Oct 17, 2003
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Echoing what others have stated. If you have a 2 man system well dialed, the 3 man is pretty obvious.
For my 2 man block system:
1. Dorky leads the pitch, trailing a zip line pre-rigged in a mini-traxion (or garda knot, or whatever you prefer).
2. Dorky arrives at the belay, zips up:
- anchor kit (lockers, cordelette, slings)
- hauler
- fresh water, snacks
- the "reject" rack of cams, nuts not wanted for the last pitch (extra half rack can reduce or eliminate resupply mid pitch).
3. Dorky builds the anchor, sets up the haul and calls that the haul line is fixed. Dorky also pulls up as much slack as is allowable (Stinky down belaow needs to save enough for his own lower out if needed).
4. Dorky screws around and finally starts solo aiding up the next pitch. If a bad haul is expected where the second will need to jug alongside the bag, the bag is hauled now, otherwise it is left for the second to haul.
5. As soon as the haul line and lead line are fixed Stinky down below:
- ties the haul bag in short, and cuts it loose.
- gets on jugs and ties in short
- tears down the anchor and starts cleaning
6. Stinky finishes cleaning and gets all comfy at the belay. Lead line is stacked (preferably in a rope bucket), and depending on what the situation is the second can either haul the bag, get the leader on belay (if short on rope), or both. If the bags ar heavy it may be best to let the sloing continue until the bags are up, but if the hauling is easy you cna haul and belay at the same time (especially if you are down to a leg haul). Gear is sent up the zip line as needed. Stinky is also responsible for keeping the water bottle on the zip line topped up, and the snack bag full of snacks. I like having a daisy on a locker for the zip so there is plenty of space to clip stuff.
The goal is to keep the leader moving at all times. If the second has an ugly cleaning task the leader should spend some time and effort doing some hauling, but his main goal is to make as much vertical progress without running out of rope or gear before the second arrives.
If you have a third, Nosepicker, he gets lowered out on the haul line with the bags and speed jugs up, and takes over responsibility for hauling. The leader then has ZERO responsibility to haul, and Stinky and Nosepicker are left to deal with bad hauls, or whatever on their own.
For the third you gotta be good at jugging a free hanging line. A froggy system, or chest box rig is advised, as is a backup ascender on the waist (mini-traxion, basic ascender, or similar).
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stymingersfink
Apr 18, 2008, 1:27 AM
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yeah, moof, that's pretty much what I said.
I left one thing out, however, that just occurred to me. When you tag the gear to the leader, be sure to include a free end of the haul line with the hauling pulley (i guess you'd better dock the bags before you tag, eh?). Usually the end that was the lower-out last time, since it will be in the top of that rope bag moof mentions, plus in doing so you will keep from concentrating all the wear on one end.
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moof
Apr 18, 2008, 4:54 PM
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Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 400
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Yep, I biffed it. Zip line has:
Reject rack
haul line
hauler
fresh water
anchor kit
bag for stacking zip line into
munchies
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skiclimb
Apr 19, 2008, 1:06 AM
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Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
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I LOVE 3 person teams. Done it both ways and really don't want to do a 2 man again. If you have your crap together you will be just as fast if not faster than a 2 person team..
Main reason..nonstop leading. well just long enough for the second to get up the haul line grab the rack and get going. No waiting to clean.
Hauling is fine with two people to work it.. the guy cleaning can often help give the bag a shove here and there if needed.
At a long belay you have someone to BS with..Nice.
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