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rockguide
Dec 1, 2007, 2:41 AM
Post #26 of 41
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angry wrote: winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!! Now you're argueing semantics. There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam. I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
and yes. Trad can be onsighted too.
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mtengaio
Dec 16, 2007, 5:08 AM
Post #27 of 41
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You'd be a lucky chap to bolt a route on rap w/o first TR'ing it to figure out bolt placements and clipping stances and have it turn out to be a quality route – unless you're a 5.11 climber bolting a 5.6, but why the fuck would bother.
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daronmalakian
Apr 18, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #28 of 41
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That's a REDPOINT.
When you bolt a route, you try the moves, find the best holds for clipping etc... that cannot be an onsigh or a flash...
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guangzhou
Apr 23, 2008, 6:00 AM
Post #29 of 41
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mtengaio wrote: You'd be a lucky chap to bolt a route on rap w/o first TR'ing it to figure out bolt placements and clipping stances and have it turn out to be a quality route – unless you're a 5.11 climber bolting a 5.6, but why the fuck would bother.
I've rap bolted over a 1000 routes now, and I rarely work the route on on top-rope first. Actually, I have almost never top-roped the route at all. my routes range from 5.6 to 5.13c. Why do i bolt 5.6, so people can climb them. I enjoy all grades if the route is fun.
In all honesty, I haven't even heard of any one complaining about where my bolts are compared to clipping stances. Some feel my bolts are spaced a bit, but the falls are all clean, so I am not worried.
Maybe I can pick out bolt placement because I have been climbing for a long time. Maybe it's because I climb trad. I will say, many people who are registered here have seen me bolt and know that I don't reverse the moves first. I don't have time. I have bolted as many has six 30 meter routes in a day and returned the next day to climb them. I don't mess up bolt placement very often.
My method is simple.
Set up a rap.
Place belay bolts
Rap a look at the hold for feet and hand, decide on bolt
Rap and repeat to route is bolted.
I will admit, I have placed a few lead bolts that I returned to at a later time, and placed in better locations. Lead bolting is much harder and you can't always get the bolt where it should be. Why would I move a lead bolt, because I want my routes to be safe and the bolts easy to clip.
Two weekends ago, I put up three routes. One trad two sport. 5.10a trad, 11b Sport, and 12c sport. The 12c(?) I have not gotten clean yet, but all the bolts are easy to clip. One climber who is shooting for the first ascent, yes, I allow anyone to climb my bolted routes without asking even if I haven't redpointed it, say the bolts are to far. He did take a 20 footer, but all clean air and he admits that it's only nerves, not risk, that make him think the bolts are to far. He took the fall several time in a row.
Yes, routes can be rap bolted without working them. Yes, bolts can be placed correctly without top-roping the route first.
In Youngshuo China, I bolted a roof in Chicken Cave. I did this on lead, mostly on aid and I couldn't work the route on top-rope. Not possible. I tried the route several times, but was never successful on it. Finally, a top British climber cam through and got the red point. Bolts were at the correct place according to those who were there to see the ascent.
Cheers
Eman
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corson
Apr 23, 2008, 8:48 PM
Post #30 of 41
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I cant believe this thread has gone on for so long! If you guys need the internet to answer this question,you should start reading R&I or else climb more.
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xtrmecat
Apr 23, 2008, 10:04 PM
Post #31 of 41
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It can not be an onsight! Onsight means at first sight, and the fact that you know it has a roof means that you have seen it.
Just send it and be proud of your FA or fall and get it over with.
Bob
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guangzhou
Apr 24, 2008, 6:50 AM
Post #32 of 41
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If you know it has roof you can't onsight it. Explain that.
The other guy, if the thread doesn't interest you, move on. You don't have ot read everyting posted.
Kind of funny, I never hear people brag about onsighting aid routes.
Man, last weekend, I on-sighted this A3+ seem.
Kool, I got he red point on the A4 to the left.
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bender
Apr 24, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #33 of 41
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you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude
whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times
when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves
get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it
dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds
they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process
you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
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guangzhou
Apr 24, 2008, 1:12 PM
Post #34 of 41
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bender wrote: you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
You have some good advice here, but I place bolt regualrly without pulling and stepping on the holds.
I will agree, clean,, clean, clean. The end product is definately the key.
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flint
Apr 24, 2008, 2:35 PM
Post #35 of 41
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bender wrote: you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
one post in 6 years... damn
j-
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bender
Apr 24, 2008, 7:37 PM
Post #36 of 41
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thank you kindly
it would seem your undoubtdly climbing much more solid formations than what we are left with here, but still unless your just a kinetic genius its really had to find the sweet spot in a climbs beta for clips without actually hanging on the hands and standing on the feet
the 'flash' ascent was so enumerated to encompass those sends where folks knowledgeable about the route shouted beta to the flailing onsighter who hung in and got a clean ascent that first try
its a hat tip to the values inherent the ground up traditions
it took into account the great distinction between simple visual inspection or a route and concrete forknowledge of its detail which watching a send of it or receiving beta regarding it are
i would argue that even a no touching inspection of a route on rappel disqualifies you from any flash ascent
(This post was edited by bender on Apr 24, 2008, 7:54 PM)
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guangzhou
Apr 25, 2008, 12:36 AM
Post #37 of 41
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No where did I say rap bolting equalled flash or onsite. I simply said, you can rap bolt without pre-top-roping the line.
Perosnally, I am more impressed with a first ascent than a flash or redpoint. Lately, the only flash or onsights I get are when i travel or when I put up trad first ascents.
Yes, I have bolted chossy area too without pre-top-roping the line. Workout fine.
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anthonypmason
May 3, 2008, 1:07 AM
Post #38 of 41
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Registered: Apr 27, 2008
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Wouldn't that be a pink point?
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Perfecto
May 15, 2008, 4:13 AM
Post #39 of 41
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Registered: May 15, 2008
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Unless a flash precludes you from looking at the whole route before climbing it(ie someone tells you the route starts here, climb UP), I would say you COULD bolt a route and still flash it. As long as you don't try any moves, you are just looking at the route up close. You certainly can look at a route all you want from the ground before flashing it, doing it on rappel shouldn't change anything. The act of placing the bolts shouldn't give you any additional information you couldn't have gotten from simply looking either, just don't grab any holds and place bolts at good intervals.
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CrazyPetie
Jun 30, 2008, 4:37 PM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: Mar 31, 2008
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joeforte wrote: omalavet wrote: thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure Not 'Round Here Boy!
I live in Pennsylvania as well, and i can say most sport routes here have been bolted on rappel. That in unless there is no other way to get to the top, and in that case the route is usualy not that difficult. Thats just from my experience here.
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Maddhatter
Sep 6, 2008, 5:06 PM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 1752
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Who really cares?
What matters is that the bolts are soild and well placed. When I started climbing climbs were done ground up with hooks.(onsight) As we all know with the new and harder over hanging climbs they just can't be done in that manner. Just make sure you put them up as good as they can be and leave the ego at home. My 2cents.
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