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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:15 AM
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A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
Do any of you use this system while climbing? If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement?
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micahmcguire
Oct 31, 2002, 12:25 AM
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I would have to say, forget the fifi hook. If you can use a carabiner then do it. There is no chance of a carabiner slipping off of an anchor, a fifi hook can come undone with a mere inappropriate movement. Hope that answer is even related to your question, if not I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the question.
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punk
Oct 31, 2002, 12:32 AM
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Yeah….I have seen this and IMHO there is no more miserable inelegant and pathetic way to lead ice then this method
If u cant place the screw holding on to your tools without resting on fifi then ….DON’T LEAD ICE
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drector
Oct 31, 2002, 12:36 AM
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I edited this to take back all of my comments because I misread the original post. Attaching a fifi to an ice tool stuck inthe ice is beyond my ice climbing experience.
Dave
[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-11-01 11:14 ]
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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:40 AM
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I was talking about resting and placing ice screws while on lead, when resting on the rope is not an option.
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-10-30 16:42 ]
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beyond_gravity
Oct 31, 2002, 12:46 AM
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How do you hang off the screw and place it at the same time
You should try place screws in a resting position, try to get off your front points, get a solid tool placement and hang off your LEASH
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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:48 AM
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You don't hang off the screw. You hang off your tool. Read the first post carefully.
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bradhill
Oct 31, 2002, 12:55 AM
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Just stick your tool over your head and drape the rope over the head of the tool while you're placing the screw. Many tools have a notch or guide just for this purpose. I don't actually weight it, but it's an OK backup without futzing around with a fifi.
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coclimber26
Oct 31, 2002, 3:17 AM
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There's nothing wrong with the fifi. Just make sure that the cord between your harness and the hook is long enough so you don't put asmuch outward pressure on the tool. I would sink it about a foot above my head and use the eyelet above the spike to clip the fifi. Watchout for outward pull and make sure you get a good purchase..
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tradklime
Oct 31, 2002, 6:14 PM
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I think this was more common practice when screws were difficult to place. With the recent introduction of express screws, etc. It's less common. Many people consider it bad style, but who cares, to each his own. However, if you are doing an FA, some don't consider it legitimate if you hang on the route. Try to learn not to, it will serve you better in the long run, but if you are pumped and scared it can help save your ass.
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rockprodigy
Oct 31, 2002, 11:05 PM
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That's pretty bad style if you ask me...if you're afraid of falling, flip the rope over the top of your tool, then place the screw...it essentially gives you a toprope, but if you weight it, you're aid climbing.
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holygecko
Nov 1, 2002, 2:28 PM
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they make a ice climbing piece, that serves as a fifi hook it is made by black diamond it is called the spectre our somethin
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tradklime
Nov 1, 2002, 5:11 PM
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Some people consider ice climbing a type of aid climbing because of the reliance on gear to climb. Anyway, I once say a video with Alex Lowe climbing Octopussy and he hooked a biner on a piece of pro to make a move...
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 5:16 PM
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A spectre is a pound in barbed hook for pro in iced cracks or wherever you can get it. A Fifi is for hanging on gear, big difference.
The number one rule of ice climbing is don't fall - if hanging on gear or hooking a piece can keep you from falling, do it. But don't report the climb in good style.
Aid from the rope to place gear is exactly that, and is not considered a clean lead.
josh
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rockprodigy
Nov 1, 2002, 5:45 PM
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I know of the video you're referring too, but that was shot a long time ago and is no longer considered apropriate. People used to say that you were only "aid climbing" if you used aid slings...you could pull on gear all day long, if you didn't stand in slings (hence the term "french free")...obviously times have changed.
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 6:10 PM
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I think that pulling on gear being defined as poor style happened approximately a long f*cking time before anyone climbed Octopussy. I can't really venture to guess but there are a lot of reasons for pulling on / hooking gear - didn't want to fall, climb too hard, climb not in condition, feature broke off, balls shriveled (not likely in this case I guess though, heh).
..josh
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 6:34 PM
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Didn't mean to imply that flippin the rope over a tool is aid - however, hanging from anything other than your leashes or the handles of your tools with your hand strength is aid and is not a clean ascent.
I agree - don't fall. But if you hang to place gear then you've hung. Would you tell someone you repointed a sport route if you took halfway up, or clipped your waste into one draw to make a big reach out overhead to that gnarly clip in the middle of the roof? Didn't think so.
josh
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beyond_gravity
Nov 2, 2002, 4:20 PM
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Ah, i get it.
I dont see anything wrong with it. There are alot of questions of purity these days...I say shut up and climb. Did you use that bridge on the approch? OMG, your ascent of that peak is no longer valid!
If you wanna hand off your tool go for it. Lots of times it's not about how you climb single pitch, it's about if reach the summit.
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brianthew
Nov 2, 2002, 4:32 PM
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I'm agreeing with b_g here...American alpinist Mark Twight said that it was the experience that counts, not the climb. Although he was a purist of style, just because your climb wasn't up to anyone else's standards means nothing. If you need such a rest go for it, as long as you can reconcile it with yourself and still have a fun climb.
Just $0.02
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punk
Nov 2, 2002, 6:11 PM
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It still a very bad form and if u need to do that u shouldn’t climb at this grade u should back down and look for a climb that fit your abilities the reason for purity in style is to match the ability to the climb and NOT to jump over your belt…this way u will avoid getting yourself to dangerous situations
The problem is that most of us have an ego “bigger then life” and it is very hard to come to the realization that we cant do it at the present time…. there is no problem working the route or comparable problem on TR but resting on fifi is the worst form of leading which will open the door to more desperate situation that will eventually lead to injury or worse
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darkside
Nov 2, 2002, 7:12 PM
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Quote:In ice climbing, the only bad form is falling
---may not be verbatim. Source unknown.
Quote:Aid Climbing - n The use of anything other than the natural rock features to make progress up the rock. (antonym: freeclimbing)
---RC.com's definition of climbing terms.
For the record here, I have not used tethers. I did buy a Fifi but have never taken it on a climb. Not even sure where it is at the moment. I will often pass the rope over the head of a tool while placing a screw as temporary protection but not to hang from.
To all the style/ethics police: Some have refered to tether's and fifi's here as aid but if aid is the use of equipment to make upward progress then what about the use of tools and crampons.
Use of these pieces of equipment aside, could you please explain your rationale for the difference between a leash to your wrist and one to your harness. I think your positions on this point are contradictory.
It is true that completing a climb without resorting to the use of a tether takes a greater effort and therefore should be worthy of greater merit. However this is a matter for you and your own self-esteem, and not to be forced on others as good or bad style. Falling on ice is NOT like falling on rock. It is a lot more dangerous. Therefore anyone advising a person to take unneccessary risk is guilty of advising that person in bad style.
The use of tethers is a matter of risk management, not of style. So I say that if you make the personal choice to use a fifi then so be it. Just make sure the tool placement is sound.
Fifi vs falling:- which one really is bad form?
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takeit4granite
Nov 2, 2002, 10:04 PM
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Strictly from a safety stand point it is not a good idea! A tool weighted from your harness is tough to keep an eye on, it can (and will) pop when you least expect it. I have done first aid on several ice climbers and the injuries are often serious.
Treat leading on ice with the old school rule "The leader must not fall" learn and progress slowly! If you want to push yourself physically try sport mixed climbing on bolts, the falls are typically more clean.
Who ever thinks ice climbing is aid climbing should try both and see for them selves if the PUMP you get from ice is closer to rock or aid climbing!!!
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beyond_gravity
Nov 3, 2002, 8:04 PM
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I can't believe this. Who are any of you to say whats right and whats wrong??
As long as you dont claim a free-ascent, pull on the Fifi all you want!
Sure your tool can pop...but your tool can pop even if your not hanging on it with your harness.
Also: Whoever said that if you need to rest you shouldnt be on the climb. Well, genius, of course you shouldn't be on the climb! If you have to rest you probably arn't having fun! But you can't exactly downclimb, at least without resting. and if your so pumped that you need to rest good luck setting up a V-thread.
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punk
Nov 3, 2002, 9:02 PM
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Quote:
A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
To my understanding they kept on climbing…so the issue of emergency is not applicable
Quote:
Do any of you use this system while climbing?
I Definitely not
Quote:
If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement? A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
I don’t use this method and it is sound like direct aid practice to me… so decides what u climb
Quote:
Do any of you use this system while climbing? If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement?
Who ever is using this method attach a FIFI HOOK (reads aid) to a daisy chain (reads aid …again) or directly to the harness (guess what …aid again)…and yes u will have a substantial risk of the tool pulling out under the pressure
Leashless climbing vs. leashes climbing BOTH has pros and cons in each method …
Leashes
Pro:
U will not drop a tool
U can have a self-belay for each tool placement (and if u would like to avoid this U can extend the leashes to a point that there is a small loop under your tool)
Tool shape more adaptable to all general situation u may encounter
Con:
Time consuming to get in and out the leash (i.e. placing screws, creating v thread etc)
Hazardous if u fall b/c the tools still attached to you
Leashless
Pro:
Easy to change hands (i.e. match hand on the tool, place screws, rigging rappel etc)
More efficient movements with less fumbling time
More natural swing to the tool
Clean fall
Con:
U will drop your tools
The tool has very limited use in the mountains
Can’t get self belay from the leashes
So here u have it Im sure there is more pros and cons for each method that I did forgot to mention but climbing ice with or without it is matter of preference and not style
What u gain in one system u lose in the other and I tried them both…and I rather not having the chance of dropping my tools while on the climb
Bottom line is
Resting on fifi while placing a screw is a BAD FORM of leading ice as a method…period
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pbjosh
Nov 3, 2002, 9:57 PM
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I'm with Punk - resting on a fifi is bad form, no matter what. Don't get on climbs that are over your head. If you do, rest on gear not on your tool, a tool that you're resting on is set to hit you in the head/face if it blows...
josh
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