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majid_sabet
Jun 2, 2008, 5:59 PM
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I just bought this deal off ebay and with a" buy it now option" of $100 for 12 new ice screws($ 8 each), I guess get it now before anyone else does and ask question later .so who makes these model / type ice screws and how do they handle in ice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...DME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123
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mojede
Jun 2, 2008, 6:15 PM
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They look like Ushba Titaniums. I have about 6 and found them to be light and usable. When new and kept sharp, they work fine. The down side is that they are not the easiest to place (starter hole helps). If you are only leading a few ice routes a year, they should be adequate. If you climb 5(+) WI, get screws with handles/cranks.
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angry
Jun 2, 2008, 6:22 PM
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Aren't the ushba ones the ones that were breaking under really small loads a few years back?
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majid_sabet
Jun 2, 2008, 7:13 PM
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angry wrote: Aren't the ushba ones the ones that were breaking under really small loads a few years back?
How small load are we talking here ?
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the_climber
Jun 2, 2008, 10:22 PM
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angry wrote: Aren't the ushba ones the ones that were breaking under really small loads a few years back?
And they aren't Ushba's either.
Ti, yes, but Ushba no.
Ushba actually made some decent screws, I have 5 of them that I have used for alpine going on 6 or 7 years.
The ones in the pic are different and much more flimsy. One of my partners bought a few of them on the "Buy it now" deal a while back. We really only carry them as a disposible light weight bail anchor for alpine though. Would I climb hard ice with them, no. Would I rap off them, I have.
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mojede
Jun 3, 2008, 1:23 AM
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the climber is right, and my brand naming is wrong--though they are the ones that I bought. i haven't climbed ice for two seasons now, and they hang out in Livingston at a partner's place who lives closer to the ice. Sorry for the error.
Everything else that I said stands.....at least I'm pretty sure.
edit: I'm 125 lbs. and don't fall leading ice, so my opinion is somewhat biased/skewed.
(This post was edited by mojede on Jun 3, 2008, 1:26 AM)
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vterinme
Jun 3, 2008, 1:57 PM
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These screws are pretty much crap. Not only have titanium screws known to break under low impacts, they tend to shear the ice more, and do not bite the ice well enough thus leading to rip outs. I wouldn't use these to bail, hang a bag from, or use for anything but a christmas ornament.
Why carry bail screws in the alpine or on any ice route. generally if you can get a screw or two in to have a safe retreat, then an abalakov will work. The few times I've needed to bail and could not make a sound abalakov, I left dull/er screws. I'd rather rap off a trusty 50$ screw than a questionable 8$ screw. IDK maybe your life is not worth as much.
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dingus
Jun 3, 2008, 2:06 PM
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The cheap Ti screws I have are pieces of shit. Hard to place, shallow threads, retired to the 'Wall of Shit' picket line in my garage.
Nothing weighs less than something and in the case of those screws, offers the same amount of utility and security.
That said I actually used em up to WI3 and AI3 for a few years... never fell on one though.
DMT
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 3, 2008, 2:21 PM
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So the consensus is that they are pieces of shyte, but Majid should whipper on all of them to prove you are all wrong?
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redpoint73
Jun 3, 2008, 3:03 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: So the consensus is that they are pieces of shyte, but Majid should whipper on all of them to prove you are all wrong?
Only if it involves him rapping off the core of a rope.
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qqac
Jun 3, 2008, 3:15 PM
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From the pic, it looks like those are Irbis brand Russian ti screws. Mountain Gear was unloading their stock of those a couple years ago for $12 each. They are low quality, as others have noted. They drive poorly, so you wouldn't want to place them on lead, and their threads are thin and shallow, so don't place them at a slight downward angle like you would with the better screws. I bought a couple to check them out and they didn't even meet my already low expectations for them.
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the_climber
Jun 3, 2008, 3:30 PM
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vterinme, not all alpine ice is equal. Also not all ice will take an abalakov.
Your impression of Titanium screws extend from the first incarnations of these screws. Titanum alloys can be exceptionally strong, but the original screws were to thin in the wals of the screw, Ushba solved this by making the walls thicker. Are these ones thin, yes. I trust them from using them in various situations.
As for $8, ha! How many times have you trusted your live to a $1.50 bolt, or a $4 old beat up pin, or $1 or thin cord? Who carries stuff like this? Lots of people, it can be a great way to back up belays, retreat, or use in short sections on lead. Lots of people also carry pins for retreat in the alpine, but hey they're light as a feather right...
If you get around the alpine enough you'll end up rapping off of old 1/4" bolts, slung blocks, chockstones placed by yourself, or even rapping off of your partner. These are common rap anchors in alpine settings. IF you're on granite, great, but that's not the donminant rock type in the alpine, where frost action and glacial processes have left little more than a pile of choss held together by ice and snow in many cases.
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2008, 3:59 PM
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I own top brand ice screw for my own ice climbing but I got these for a climbing school I am putting together so student can build ice anchors for practice. You guys think these are that bad that they are not worth $8 new ?
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vterinme
Jun 3, 2008, 4:12 PM
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Correct not all alpine ice works for the abalakov. There are many ways to skin a cat in the alpine word, and yes frozen turf and pebbles are safer than those. I've been in the alpine world long enough to learn those screws are definitely not worth 8$, no doubt about it. If I found a partner placing that mank on any climb, I'd consider them very unsafe and rethink any furture plans with them. When I climb I carry what is needed for the route/ mtn, I don't climb with the idea having to bail. What's that old saying "if you bring bivvy gear, you'll most like be bivving," same could be said of bail gear. Buy hey YMMV
BTW we were not talking about crap bolts, pins, or homemade tat. We're talking about whether or not those screws are safe. IMO you'd be much better off blowing 50$ than trusting pro that has been proven time and time again that they are not worthy.
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2008, 4:21 PM
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vterinme wrote: Correct not all alpine ice works for the abalakov. There are many ways to skin a cat in the alpine word, and yes frozen turf and pebbles are safer than those. I've been in the alpine world long enough to learn those screws are definitely not worth 8$, no doubt about it. If I found a partner placing that mank on any climb, I'd consider them very unsafe and rethink any furture plans with them. When I climb I carry what is needed for the route/ mtn, I don't climb with the idea having to bail. What's that old saying "if you bring bivvy gear, you'll most like be bivving," same could be said of bail gear. Buy hey YMMV BTW we were not talking about crap bolts, pins, or homemade tat. We're talking about whether or not those screws are safe. IMO you'd be much better off blowing 50$ than trusting pro that has been proven time and time again that they are not worthy.
climbers use to say that about those Russian made cheap cams and nut but those same ugly looking cams and nuts prove themselves to be as good as some of the name brand.
I am not saying that you guys are wrong but if a product is that bad then what are they doing in the climbing market been sold to public ?
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vterinme
Jun 3, 2008, 4:38 PM
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You bought those off Ebay, hardly a reputable source for climbing gear.
Sure places sell them, but there really isn't a governing body that certs ice screws(ie. break strength). Thus any company can make them and just need to find enough people gullible to buy them. My guess for the reason why you can still find them is that enough people fall into the mindset "well they're cheap, lightweight, and one day I'll bail and it will be handy."
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redpoint73
Jun 3, 2008, 4:43 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: climbers use to say that about those Russian made cheap cams and nut but those same ugly looking cams and nuts prove themselves to be as good as some of the name brand.
Not exactly Russia, but the Black Diamond QC guru tested a bunch of Ukraine-made gear and determined the following:
Cams
* None of the cams met their rating. In two of the three cases, the failure mode was peculiar and undesirable (cable failure midspan, and axle shear).
Stoppers
* Stoppers usually fail “Cable at Nut”Two of the six failed by the cable pulling out of the swage—though one above a comparable sized BD stopper’s rating, and one significantly lower. This failure mode is probably the result of poor swaging.The medium and larger size stoppers were slightly weaker than a comparable size BD stopper.
* The smaller stoppers were significantly weaker that a comparable size BD stopper.
Bottom Line
Climbing is a serious game—buy your equipment from reputable manufacturers. Be careful of knock-offs and small-time garage-shop gear. I’m not saying that there can’t be good small-shop gear out there—but in most cases these companies don’t go through the certification processes and have the quality systems in place in order to ensure repeatable manufacturing processes and that the gear they are producing consistently meets its intended ratings.
http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#120505
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2008, 7:32 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: climbers use to say that about those Russian made cheap cams and nut but those same ugly looking cams and nuts prove themselves to be as good as some of the name brand. Not exactly Russia, but the Black Diamond QC guru tested a bunch of Ukraine-made gear and determined the following: Cams
* None of the cams met their rating. In two of the three cases, the failure mode was peculiar and undesirable (cable failure midspan, and axle shear).
Stoppers
* Stoppers usually fail “Cable at Nut”Two of the six failed by the cable pulling out of the swage—though one above a comparable sized BD stopper’s rating, and one significantly lower. This failure mode is probably the result of poor swaging.The medium and larger size stoppers were slightly weaker than a comparable size BD stopper.
* The smaller stoppers were significantly weaker that a comparable size BD stopper.
Bottom Line
Climbing is a serious game—buy your equipment from reputable manufacturers. Be careful of knock-offs and small-time garage-shop gear. I’m not saying that there can’t be good small-shop gear out there—but in most cases these companies don’t go through the certification processes and have the quality systems in place in order to ensure repeatable manufacturing processes and that the gear they are producing consistently meets its intended ratings. http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#120505
conflict of interest
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dutyje
Jun 3, 2008, 7:41 PM
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There is only one way to stop Majid from quoting your entire post and bold-facing select portions... you have to bold the entire thing. I knew he couldn't resist quoting that thing and sprinkling a small bit of extra bold.
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2008, 7:56 PM
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a competitor performing a test on another overseas Mfgs which makes similar product creates conflict of interest.
Did I say something wrong ?
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dutyje
Jun 3, 2008, 8:05 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: a competitor performing a test on another overseas Mfgs which makes similar product creates conflict of interest. Did I say something wrong ?
No.. You said nothing wrong. I was just making fun of your tendency to heavily bold-face the quoted content of others' posts.
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angry
Jun 3, 2008, 8:06 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: a competitor performing a test on another overseas Mfgs which makes similar product creates conflict of interest. Did I say something wrong ?
It's not whether or not you said something wrong. You said something that suited your needs. BD does a lot of testing, I'm certain that they publish the actual findings. Do you think they are testing other brands' gear to a different standard than their own? Krok is junk for more reasons than strength if that's who you're referring to.
Are the ice screws OK for beginners to practice boring holes in ice with? Yes. Not much else though.
I'm unsure of the manufacturer, I thought maybe Ushba, I can't remember. I know for certain that specific titanium ice screws are considered worse than a dimpled alien. There aren't failures because people generally don't fall on ice. You could protect the ice with RP's and the effect is the same, you didn't fall on them so it's cool.
I don't know if your screws are the suspect ones, maybe or maybe not. Like others have said though, they go in like shit, probably can't be sharpened well, and are never a trustworthy piece.
There is one piece of titanium ice gear out there worth a damn, they are the Jim Stanley handmade ice tools and axes.
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redpoint73
Jun 3, 2008, 8:11 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: a competitor performing a test on another overseas Mfgs which makes similar product creates conflict of interest. Did I say something wrong ?
What I posted may be considered a "conflict of interest". But its at least more factual than saying Russian gear "proves to be as good" and giving no actual evidence to back it up.
I trust the BD more than these Eastern Bloc "gear" companies. They don't even test their OWN gear, much less anyone else's.
(Entire reply boldfaced per previous recommendation by dutyje)
(This post was edited by redpoint73 on Jun 3, 2008, 8:14 PM)
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vterinme
Jun 3, 2008, 9:22 PM
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Look Majid, if you want cheaper priced screws go for Omegas. They'll screw in a bit better, and if any of those "new" people actually go on to lead they'll work for that too.
Here's my thinking on the BD results. They trash titanium pretty much hands down. If they were doing it just to bolster their own line then why have they not done tests showing how Charlet, Grivel, DMM and Omega suck in the same way.
Do the titanium screws have a place? Perhaps like if you're old school and rig 8,000m of fixed line and need a couple hundred directionals for the line.
In the same theory of bailing. I could buy like 100 of those not for climbing biners for 50$. They're light, small,and they'll probably hold , but I'm not running to the store just to keep them in my bag- o- tricks.
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