So the gym near my house doesnt tie you into your harness with a figure 8 knot. They clip you in with a steel autolocking biner instead to your belay loop.

Any of your places do this? They dont even let me tie in correctly. Frustrates me cause now I dont want to take my own harness.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

That statement just made my evening. You'reThis is a funny dudethread, dude.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Have you ever seen harnesses with JUST ONE LOOP?

You know, the harnesses the gyms typically use for rentals b/c they have more size-adjustablility?

On those harnesses you TIE IN AND BELAY from the same loop of reinforced webbing.

Or maybe you have heard of alpine harnesses? they don't have a "belay loop".

Rest assured, both are perfectly safe.



The bottom line: a standard sport/trad harness comes with a belay loop for belaiyng, and the manufacturers recommend tying your figure 8 through two loops, not through the belay loop-- a recommendation you should follow.

HOWEVER, it is perfectly safe to tie in to the belay loop if you are inclined to do so on some occasions. It is also perfectly safe to clip a figure-8-on-a-bight to your belay loop via a locking 'biner and climb that way. It introduces an unnecessary extra link into the system, and that 'biner can be annoying, but it is a standard practice in many gyms.

um...

the reason you don't tie into your belay loop is not because it isn't strong enough.

(just for reference, since this particular thread seems to be about blowing bull shit out of our noses and calling it breathing, you might want to read this: http://www.bdel.com/...ch_harness%20WEB.pdf)

you'll find that harness manufacturers typically send out their gear with INSTRUCTIONS on how to use them. if you were to read the above, you would find that in the case of this particular, common harness, the belay loop is rated to 15kN, which is greater than the maximum theoretical force sustained in a lead fall. (i can post an explicit reference if you'd like, or you can take it on faith that this information is deep in the annals of John Long's Anchors, 2nd ed.)

perhaps another compelling reason to not tie-in to the belay loop is the fact that THIS IS WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS TO DO. if you were to read the above documentation, you would also discover that the manufacturer states that the belay loop is to be used for belay devices only.

an interesting aside: the manufacturer also states that in rescue situations, a locking carabiner can be clipped directly into the belay loop. but wait, i thought the belay loop wasn't strong enough for these "dynamic" forces?!

so why do we only tie in to the tie-in points and belay from the belay loop then, if you could just as easily tie in to the belay loop?

1. clipping in like at the gym mentioned by the OP leads to complacency.

2. it's one more failure point in the system (and i'm not talking about the belay loop. your body will snap before that thing will. i'm talking about a potentially unlocked, cross-loaded carabiner, that might not be made of steel.)

3. it's more organized. all of your ropes are attached to your tie-ins, all of your hardware/belay devices to your belay loop. better organized means less chance of a fatal clusterfuck.

4. it is less wear on the belay loop. software-on-software causes more wear than hardware-on-software (all things being equal. don't spew on me about some sharp carabiner, etc.) why is this important? because when you clip an atc in to the belay loop, it's a single attachment point that could fail. it would be nice if it were in the best condition possible to avoid this unpleasant (and rather unlikely) eventuality.

(ps. if anyone yells todd skinner i may smack them. the wings didn't fall off the airplane, the pilot made an error. please note: no offense to todd skinner. i'm just saying this is an apples-and-oranges thing and that the circumstances surrounding his incident are not reason to lose faith in the belay loop.)