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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2008, 2:53 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: In reply to: The anticipated Dick is supposed to include the Nears, which is nice, because the Swain guide lacks a lot of details that would be helpful. I did pretty good by the Swain book. Yeah, info is sparse, but the topos were really very helpful. I was able to find all the routes I wanted. Only complaint I might lay on that book is sometimes things got a little muddled with route variations. edited for clarity
It's that in particular that has put me in trouble before.
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granite_grrl
Aug 28, 2008, 3:22 PM
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budman wrote: Headed back to the Gunks after being in the desert for 10 years, possibly I should leave my rack at home and bring quickdraws. Maybe I should stay home who wants to climb in a beautiful setting where climbers are welcome and access is only about 80 dollars a year. As to those 40 year old pitons yeah their safe. Did order the tacky guide book, really liked the one for Devils Tower, besides I think Batso may have approved due to all the commotion it caused. The Gunks has been rated # 1 Trad area in the world before and probably will get that distinction again due to the quality and quantity of climbs at all levels.
I'm assuming the new Gunks guide book is about the equivilant of the Tower one. More of a coffee table book than a viable guide book.
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jmeizis
Aug 28, 2008, 3:24 PM
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I hear ya, I find that I am dissapointed by a lot of places the first time I go there. It seems like the most popular climbing sites are popular because they're near roads, especially out east (Poko-Moonshine, Gunks, Cannon). I remember my first trip out to the desert this March and my first though when I got to the triple bolted anchor right next to crack was, why the hell is this bolted (it wasn't a rap anchor either. Then the next day we went to Wall Street in Moab which, while fun, was just ridiculous at the same time. I also climb at the Garden of the Gods a lot which looks awesome till you get up to the climb and notice that everything is full of pinscars and 500 tourists are taking your picture telling you not to jump. I think you have to take the good with the bad in certain areas. For me in the Gunks it was dealing with those dumb guidebook descriptions and hordes of incompetent gumbies screaming (TAKE!). A lot of those routes were done before nuts or cams and I think Cracklover is right, because I can see a difference in how the rock is treated in CO where I climb now and how much better it has been treated when I used to climb in NY and NH.
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wonderwoman
Aug 28, 2008, 3:32 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: Oh and that new guidebook was pretty tacky.
I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes!
One of the more positive things were that the pics of the routes were taken in winter or something when there were no leaves on the trees. The topos looked better to me.
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cracklover
Aug 28, 2008, 3:48 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: dreday3000 wrote: Oh and that new guidebook was pretty tacky. I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes! One of the more positive things were that the pics of the routes were taken in winter or something when there were no leaves on the trees. The topos looked better to me.
There are some very thorough reviews of that new guidebook here at This thread on Gunks.com
In stark contrast to what sounds like a mostly terrible book, the new Dick Williams guide to the Nears should be coming out soon. It should be awesome.
(Edited to fix the link).
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Aug 28, 2008, 5:31 PM)
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dreday3000
Aug 28, 2008, 4:01 PM
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cracklover wrote: j_ung wrote: In reply to: Gunks + Pitons Seriously, though - you have to understand the history. In order to keep the Gunks from looking like some of those beat out cracks in Yosemite, a consensus was agreed on to leave all pitons placed - in the rock. That way, instead of each party placing and removing, they'd be placed once, last for however many years, and then... What do you know, by the time that first set of pins was rotting out, new technology had come along, and they didn't need to be replaced at all! So it turned out to be an even better idea in hindsight than anyone could have known at the time! (Did I get that right, Rich? I wasn't there, of course). GO Yeah, you know I buy that; it ain't perfect but I suppose that if people had been placing and removing pitons a la the Valley, the Gunks would be a total culsterfuck.
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cracklover
Aug 28, 2008, 4:09 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Then the next day we went to Wall Street in Moab which, while fun, was just ridiculous at the same time.
Using Wall Street to represent the style and approach of desert climbing is like using Arrow to claim that the Gunks is all rap bolted. I've probably spent nearly a month climbing in Moab over the years, and I haven't been to Wall Street yet.
Your choices to climb at the most accessible crags speak more about your choices than about what's been developed in an area. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it seems a little silly to decry an area for being what it is, when there's plenty of adventure climbing that you turned down to go there.
I mean, the Dacks is mostly full of adventure climbing, (quite amazing for it being in upstate NY) but you wouldn't guess that by your comments about, poko-moonshine.
Or were these not your choices, but where you had to go to guide your clients on the trade routes they wanted to do?
In reply to: because I can see a difference in how the rock is treated in CO where I climb now and how much better it has been treated when I used to climb in NY and NH.
Hmm, how do you mean? Are you saying that many of the climbs in Colorado were put up during the sport climbing revolution, while climbs in the Gunks were put up as "traditional" climbing came to have a name? And that CO climbs were forced, or that they suffered from bolt wars, because of this?
GO
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budman
Aug 28, 2008, 4:15 PM
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Ah! yes it is but with both my Dingus McGee and the Last Pioneer Woman guide and the new tower guide I had a wonderful time climbing Cracks (not my first trip to the tower) as well as some interesting reading and classic photos. No one guide will possibly appeal to everyone. Waiting to see the new Gunks guide and make my own Judgement of how good or how bad. One thing I've learned out of all these years is if I like it that's all that counts, Hell I'm no critic and don't really want to be. I just want to climb and laugh about all the crazy things that seam to happen when your climbing. Remember no guide book is a substitute for good judgement.
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2008, 4:50 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes!
I heard Laurel was finally re-justified. Not sure what the new grade is, but I hear it is much more - ahem - accurate.
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wonderwoman
Aug 28, 2008, 5:00 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes! I heard Laurel was finally re-justified. Not sure what the new grade is, but I hear it is much more - ahem - accurate.
Once you get off the ground, it's cake!
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wonderwoman
Aug 28, 2008, 5:00 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes! I heard Laurel was finally re-justified. Not sure what the new grade is, but I hear it is much more - ahem - accurate. Once you get off the ground, it's cake!
Great! Now I want cake!
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2008, 5:13 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes! I heard Laurel was finally re-justified. Not sure what the new grade is, but I hear it is much more - ahem - accurate. Once you get off the ground, it's cake!
Yeah, once you're past the 5.17b+ first five feet, you're right, it's cake with frosting and jimmies and ice cream and chocolate sauce...
In reply to: Great! Now I want cake!
edit: fixed quotes
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Aug 28, 2008, 5:14 PM)
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jmeizis
Aug 28, 2008, 5:55 PM
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I agree, Wall Street is not representative of the desert but it think it is somewhat representative of climber mentality. You'll find the biggest crowds at the places with the easiest access. I don't always climb at the most accessible places. I just got back from a few days in the Black Canyon, it was awesome, there was only one other party in the whole canyon climbing. Obviously skill levels necessary for an area have an impact which is why Rumney, while being a little off the beaten bath is full of hordes every weekend while Cannon, being right off I-90 doesn't have too much of a problem with crowding. I guess the question is do more climbers make access easier or do climbers go to more easily accessed areas. I'm going to go with the latter.
The 'Dacks are the same way, the crags right next to the road are the most crowded (Poko, Keene Valley, etc.) while the ones that take a walk are far less crowded (Barkeaters, Wallface, Avalanche Lake Area). It wasn't always my choice, I worked at a kids camp and ran the climbing program in which we went to the same place all the time, it was lame. Right next to the road (King Phillips Slab)
I think if people don't want a crowd somewhere then the easiest way to do so is to make it require more skill and less simple access. For some reason a lot of climbers don't like walking, backpacking, and building anchors. A lot of them want crags with carriage paths, pit toilets, running water, and bolted anchors. Personally I don't think climbing should be dumbed down for the masses. I see it more out here than I did back east but people TR through the rap rings around here all the time. Climbing's not for everyone, if you can't hike, camp, or build an anchor, maybe you shouldn't climb.
I think CO did suffer from the sport climbing revolution in a way that NY did not. People will bolt just about any piece of choss just to put their name up on something. Boulder Canyon being a case in point. I've only been living here for six months so i'm only talking from my limited experience here but I think there is a tendency to reduce some bold ascents to casual clip-ups. Sometimes even not bold gear ascents are reduced to casual clip-ups. There is definite difference between a climb bolted here in the 70's and 80's and those bolted late 80's till now.
There is a tradition of bold ethics out east that people are pretty proud of. If someone bolted High E, not only would it get chopped but someone would get their ass beat. There are areas that way in CO (the Black, GOTG) but there are also areas in both places where gear protectable free climbs get bolted (Rumney). Now that I've turned this into a conversation about bolting I'll say this. I'm not against bolts or pins but if it can be lead on gear then let it be and only put bolts as necessary.
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cracklover
Aug 28, 2008, 6:17 PM
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I dunno, I think you're making an artificial point, but I haven't spent long enough out here to argue about whether "most people" want sport or trad. I think most folks just pick what suits them out of whatever's out there already.
Same thing on the East Coast. You ever wonder why all the climbs at 5.8 and under at the Gunks are so crowded? Because most folks, East or West, have a limited desire for adventure. Though when it comes to bold adventure, the West certainly seems to offer more to those who really want it.
Colorado has a tradition of bold ethics, too. Didn't you say you just got back from the Black? I've spent a bit of time climbing with Larry Hamilton, who's from CO. He did some pretty damn bold FA's with Joe Herbst back in the day. And he's still proud of them, and is saddened to see some get retro-bolted.
Anyway, give a shout if you want to climb sometime. We can instill our "East Coast Trad Ethics" into some CO rock. Just so long as you can get to the crag on a carriage road. ;)
GO
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2008, 6:36 PM
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cracklover wrote: I dunno, I think you're making an artificial point, but I haven't spent long enough out here to argue about whether "most people" want sport or trad. I think most folks just pick what suits them out of whatever's out there already. Same thing on the East Coast. You ever wonder why all the climbs at 5.8 and under at the Gunks are so crowded? Because most folks, East or West, have a limited desire for adventure. Though when it comes to bold adventure, the West certainly seems to offer more to those who really want it. Colorado has a tradition of bold ethics, too. Didn't you say you just got back from the Black? I've spent a bit of time climbing with Larry Hamilton, who's from CO. He did some pretty damn bold FA's with Joe Herbst back in the day. And he's still proud of them, and is saddened to see some get retro-bolted. Anyway, give a shout if you want to climb sometime. We can instill our "East Coast Trad Ethics" into some CO rock. Just so long as you can get to the crag on a carriage road. ;) GO
I think you guys have already met. Gabe, meet Jeremiah. Jeremiah, Gabe. (you've probably met at Metro).
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wonderwoman
Aug 28, 2008, 7:02 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I took a look at that guidebook and was surprised at all the grade changes! I heard Laurel was finally re-justified. Not sure what the new grade is, but I hear it is much more - ahem - accurate. Once you get off the ground, it's cake! Yeah, once you're past the 5.17b+ first five feet, you're right, it's cake with frosting and jimmies and ice cream and chocolate sauce... In reply to: Great! Now I want cake!
edit: fixed quotes
the power of positive thinking! I just got invited to a cake party next door. it was watermelon cake, though.
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jmeizis
Aug 28, 2008, 7:31 PM
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I think we might be saying the same thing in a different way. It seems people in general find themselves more suited to sport because it's easier to learn, cheaper, and less dangerous the majority of the time. So people flock to the easily accessible sport climbing areas. I always see far more people at sport areas than trad. I've always thought of climbing as an adventuous sport but that's just my opinion. It's fine to me if people don't want as much of an adventure but you have to have a little bit or you might as well go to the gym.
I agree that the West does have more to offer in the way of adventure, mostly just because of the simple amount of rock out this way. I guess it was confusing the way I said it but there are fewer crags per state of bold ethics in CO as compared to say NY and NH. Figure CO has GOTG, the Black, and maybe RMNP for boldness but then you have Eldo, Bolted Canyon, Shelf, Red Rock Canyon, and all the little bolted crags all over the place. a few hundred bold climbs vs. thousands of easy going clip ups. In NY and NH you've got Cannon, the Dacks, Whitehorse and Cathedral, plus all the little obscure trad crags in the White Mountains. Then you've got places like Rumney, and maybe Sundown Ledges that are relaxed clip ups. I'm simplifying things for sure and I'm probably just bitter because I'm tired of people whining about how far apart the bolts are at the local crag.
I agree CO does have a bold tradition but it seems like the sport climbing revolution muddied that tradition quite a bit.
I'm down for some trad action, There's a "carriage road" that leads to some wicked alpine climbs near the summit of Pikes Peak, interested? It's about 10 miles with 5k of elevation gain. I'll send a PM
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strongmadsends
Aug 28, 2008, 8:11 PM
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Thumbed through the new guide book a couple weeks ago. Though the topos are the best I've seen out of any of the guide books for the area, there are tons of missing routes and the grades are not consistent, though probably more realistic with how I'd expect the climb to go - however - I would want the grades more in line with the other books.
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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2008, 8:34 PM
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strongmadsends wrote: I would want the grades more in line with the other books.
Here's a question for folks (kind of a thread-drift here, so sorry).
I know nothing of the history of grading in Yosemite except that, according to the SuperTopo guide, when SuperTopo first came out with their Valley guide there was a bit of an uproar with regards to the grade changes.
So my questions are many and varied, but essentially I'm wondering what people feel about this. Does the historical grade matter? Should it matter forever? Does it matter if the route changes in some way (becomes more polished over time or a hold breaks, etc)? Has the SuperTopo change in grades made things better? More Consistent? Or worse?
I'm just curious. I really don't know the answer to this, though I will say that I wouldn't mind if intentional sandbagging were fixed, and I wouldn't mind it either if a route changed and the grade was changed as a result. But I'm not I'm fixed on this, just throwing out an initial opinion with the question. I guess the question isn't even specific to Yosemite. I just thought of it upon Strongmadsends comment and remembered reading about it, albeit briefly, in the Valley SuperTopo earlier this summer.
Thoughts?
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sgreer
Aug 28, 2008, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: My GF has been there over a dozen times, and pretty much never even clips a pin. She doesn't trust them
Dude, just because you don't trust a piton dosen't mean you can't clip it. I clip fixed gear, pitons, old slings around chock stones, ect all the time. Sometimes it's the only thing you got. Man, I've been low on gear on some really epic climbs and clipping that rusty old piton gives the mind some rest. Just don't rely on them to anchor you to the rock or keep you from decking.
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