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smeinhold
Oct 15, 2008, 1:23 PM
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i've had my c3's for over a year and they've saved my life plenty of times. i had a friend break a 000 with multiple 20 ft falls but it held the first few times, not bad for a strictly aid rated piece. between a few buddies of mine and me we've put these cams through the worst of the worst and they've done great.
on a second note, placing smaller cams is more difficult because of the smaller ranges and they seem to get stuck more often than others. to me these seem like user error, not a defect in the cam. i look at my c3's and they are way more mangled than the shiny "broken" one in the picture and they still work great. has that cam even touched rock?
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 1:32 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: So, "over-camming" might be exact description I should use but this is a hard thing to explain. I'll see if I can't get out and get some pictures and or video of why this happened to my cam... As for is the holding power compromised the answer is yes. The way the c3 work is that the springs are at the bottom of the cam and push up on the trigger creating the tension between the rock and the cam head. once the trigger is dislodged the spring is no longer pushing on the cam head and it becomes limp. Other cams don't do this because the springs are connected directly to the cam head. The reason the unique spring position of the C3's is advantageous is that it allows the cam heads to be closer together, which is why the C3 have such a narrow head profile..... So, again I'm gonna try and get pictures and/or video of exactly what i think is happening..stay tuned CMT
Thanks. I really like my C3s, but I am concerned about this, particularly if the spring pops on P1 and I don't notice it by the time I place it on P3 at the crux. Knowledge of what is really going on is key.
I guess I also don't understand why BD doesn't try to explain why this isn't a problem (this isn't directed at you, CMT). If it isn't, then OK, I can chalk that up to me not understanding the device from a mechanics perspective (I'm a writer not an engineer), but by saying nothing I get the feeling that they are saying, "just trust us, it's OK." I've never trusted someone who essentially says "because I said so," and I'm hesitant to do so now.
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the_climber
Oct 15, 2008, 4:13 PM
Post #28 of 54
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OMG no, really, f'd up C3's! Say it ain't so man, just say it ain't so!
OMG not a design flaw with the C3's! O M G nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! What will the world do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously I am ssssssssssoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo surprized at this, from BD! O M G! Now I'll have to go back to my Metolius/ballnut/old4cam-micro-camalot set-up from the C3's set-up I didn't buy because of the design in the first place! OMG how will I ever survive?
OH,wait, it's all good.
This little isse with the C3's isn't new at all. It's been happening to a lot of people. When placed trhe unit will still cam, but extraction becomes the issue.... or is it the design in the 1st place that is the issue?
Look I like BD cams, I really do despite them not being what I reach for 1st on my rack, I do like them. Do I think there is an over reliance on Camalots? Well that's another story. I do think that for how hard "I" am on my gear the C3's would be a poor choice for a gear purchace for "me".
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mhagny
Oct 15, 2008, 4:25 PM
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When a spring pops, that lobe is no longer functioning -- it has no pressure on it, and you have a very unstable situation with only 2 lobes camming. End of story.
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epoch
Moderator
Oct 15, 2008, 4:29 PM
Post #30 of 54
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epoch wrote: Question #1: Have you contacted Black Diamond about this? Question #2: Does this post precede or follow said contact? |
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vegastradguy
Oct 15, 2008, 4:39 PM
Post #31 of 54
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epoch- the op did contact bd about this, then posted here.
as to the trigger wire popping (thats what it is, it isnt the spring)- i had this happen to my....either yellow or red one, cant remember which. i had place both of them a few inches apart, fell on the top one, the lower one's trigger wire popped.
after an annoying half an hour, i did manage to re-insert the wire. i did call BD beforehand, they told me that the wire probably wasn't curved quite enough during assembly, thus making it prone to pop. i curved it a little more when i put it back in, and i havent had the problem since. (i got that particular C3 right when they came out).
the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2008, 4:46 PM
Post #32 of 54
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vegastradguy wrote: epoch- the op did contact bd about this, then posted here. as to the trigger wire popping (thats what it is, it isnt the spring)- i had this happen to my....either yellow or red one, cant remember which. i had place both of them a few inches apart, fell on the top one, the lower one's trigger wire popped. after an annoying half an hour, i did manage to re-insert the wire. i did call BD beforehand, they told me that the wire probably wasn't curved quite enough during assembly, thus making it prone to pop. i curved it a little more when i put it back in, and i havent had the problem since. (i got that particular C3 right when they came out). the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
This must be a fairly limited issue as I don't recall hearing of any whippers not being held by them. As far as the Metolious goes, they have the opposite issue, those things stick more than most cams, and you need to take care not to get them permanently stuck.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 5:13 PM
Post #33 of 54
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vegastradguy wrote: the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
I'm still a bit confused as to why there are so many people saying it is not an issue then. It seems to me that if a cam is compromised then the piece is not as reliable when broken vs when not broken, and therefore it should not be trusted, but I'm hearing a bunch of people say it's OK. 
Am I incorrect in using the analogy of a wire popping out of a nut? I know when the wire pops out of a nut then the nut is completely useless, and it seems that maybe the C3 could still hold a fall on the other two cams. But really, if the cam is compromised, doesn't that call into question the gear's reliability?
Sorry for continued questions folks, but I'm just baffled that people are shrugging this off, and I really want to understand why this is not an issue, particularly since I've read at least two responses that say the cam with the pulled wire is compromised.
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mheyman
Oct 15, 2008, 5:15 PM
Post #34 of 54
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mhagny wrote: When a spring pops, that lobe is no longer functioning -- it has no pressure on it, and you have a very unstable situation with only 2 lobes camming. End of story.
Don't think anyone is argueing this.
I was assuming that In reply to: This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should.
The issues are
1) Will this happen on it's own after you have made a good placement?
2)How much risk is there of placeing a piece that has been damaged this way?
Thanks for aking us aware. I know I will inspect my C3s and placemnts more carefully.
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donald949
Oct 15, 2008, 6:36 PM
Post #35 of 54
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Gmburns2000 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it. I'm still a bit confused as to why there are so many people saying it is not an issue then. It seems to me that if a cam is compromised then the piece is not as reliable when broken vs when not broken, and therefore it should not be trusted, but I'm hearing a bunch of people say it's OK. Am I incorrect in using the analogy of a wire popping out of a nut? I know when the wire pops out of a nut then the nut is completely useless, and it seems that maybe the C3 could still hold a fall on the other two cams. But really, if the cam is compromised, doesn't that call into question the gear's reliability? Sorry for continued questions folks, but I'm just baffled that people are shrugging this off, and I really want to understand why this is not an issue, particularly since I've read at least two responses that say the cam with the pulled wire is compromised.
If the spring isn't holding the cam lobe on to the rock face, then it's not going to take a load during a fall. We then und up with an unstable 2 out 3 cam that is going piviot one direction or another under a fall.
Given the number of responses above with people relating how theirs/their friends cams did this, I got to agree with Greg. Its Unsat. Sure you can inspect your cam and trigger wires closely every time you place it, but that ain't right.
I've always been kind of a Metolious guy. Sure the newest and latest C4 Camalots are nice, but gen 1 were fugly.
D
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 7:44 PM
Post #36 of 54
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Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit.
hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape. |
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 7:53 PM
Post #37 of 54
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boadman wrote: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
But this seems to be the issue doesn't it? Look, I know that a properly placed cam is significantly stronger than one that is not properly placed, but I'll tell you that in the heat of the moment, as you're struggling to protect a runout during a sustained crux, you just might plug and go with the knowledge that maybe the placement wasn't great but that also, just maybe, that the piece will hold. I had nearly that precise situation this weekend, except that instead of a cam it was a nut, and the nut held despite it having absolutely no right to actually do so. The nut was not placed properly, but I never worried about the nut itself failing, just my poor placement. With this cam, it seems one has to worry about both.
I just don't know of any other cam where it has to be fairly well-inspected every time it is placed just in case it wasn't properly placed the last time. I look at my gear before I place it, but I don't do a thorough inspection each time. To do that would mean staying below my comfort level and not pushing scary cruxes where plugging quick and easy gear (aka - cams) is sometimes required. Seriously, is there another piece of equipment out there that is like this, where one has to worry about it being placed properly every time in order for it to work? Because, like I said, while it isn't the preferred practice, there are certainly moments when gear that is not placed well still holds a fall.
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kennoyce
Oct 15, 2008, 8:25 PM
Post #38 of 54
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what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 8:30 PM
Post #39 of 54
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The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs. If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers.
kennoyce wrote: what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will. |
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HappinessIsWinning
Oct 15, 2008, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. kennoyce wrote: what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will. boadman wrote: The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs. If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers.
boadman you should field test your theory. Try removing the springs from your cams (and I'm not referring to the "trigger cables") and see awesome your cams work. 
EDITED: After looking at your profile I would assume you know what he is talking about. You must just be confused about what he is saying.
(This post was edited by HappinessIsWinning on Oct 15, 2008, 8:58 PM)
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donald949
Oct 15, 2008, 8:56 PM
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boadman wrote: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
Re holding power:
The strength of the spring does not affect the holding power during loading from a fall, that is correct.
BUT, and it is a big but, the spring affects the contact force when the cam is not being loaded prior to a fall. Up until the milli second before the cam unit is loaded, the spring is keeping the cam lobes pressed against the rock. It, the spring, is providing the Normal force on the crack sides. If the lobe is not pressed against the rock the second that its loaded from the fall, and there is no spring to push it back out, that cam lobe will not rotate out against the rock by itself. Now the lobe MAY catch a raised rock point and grab, but more than likely not.
We could look at it this way. If we cut the springs on a cam unit, placed it in a vert crack, pushed the cams out by hand, pulled down on the unit, it would hold. But once we let go and took one move up the rock, the lobes would release and the unit would fall.
Hope this helps, D
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kennoyce
Oct 15, 2008, 8:56 PM
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[ The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs.]
Obviously, I too am an engineer, but if there is no spring, then there is nothing to hold the cam in place until that downward force on the stem is applied.
[If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers. ]
I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but regardless, if you don't have a spring then the cam lobe will not engage the rock, and therefor you have no holding power. This is a major issue.
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climbinginchico
Oct 15, 2008, 9:01 PM
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For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems.
Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 9:13 PM
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Actually, I've climbed with a cam with a broken spring that I was too lazy to fix for a while and even fallen on it and it works fine, except for being a little hard to place. If you give the cam a jerk to set it, the trigger wires will hold the cam against the rock with enough force for it to engage in the event of a fall. This won't work if all the springs are broken, but with just one broken, the other cams will keep the trigger assembly in position to hold the cam against the rock. It's not optimal, but it's not life threatening. However, if you don't sling the cam well, and you climb past it and jar it out of position, there's a chance that it won't catch. A pretty small chance in my opinion.
kennoyce wrote: [ The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs.] Obviously, I too am an engineer, but if there is no spring, then there is nothing to hold the cam in place until that downward force on the stem is applied. [If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers. ] I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but regardless, if you don't have a spring then the cam lobe will not engage the rock, and therefor you have no holding power. This is a major issue. |
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 9:14 PM
Post #45 of 54
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climbinginchico wrote: For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems. Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall.
Please name another cam that has this issue, and please state that you have placed the perfect cam in every single instance you have ever placed one. I guess the point is that one expects the product to be somewhat idiot proof up to a certain degree. I'm not talking about making a cup of coffee for Starbucks that will never ever burn the customer, but I am saying that Starbucks isn't dumb enough to pour hot coffee into notebook paper and expect the customer to not be burnt by it. There is a middle ground here, and I just can't understand why some people are not worried about this. As far as I know, none of my other cams require me to be perfect like this each time.
I shouldn't have to worry every single time I place that cam that the trigger wire may pop if I over cam it. Seriously, who worries about that with any other cam?
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tomcat
Oct 15, 2008, 9:21 PM
Post #46 of 54
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Boy,I can't imagine owning C3's and not pulling"too hard" on the triggers,they stick like crazy,like too much sometimes.
So far I have three C3's and one Mastercam,and neither do I like as well as my Aliens.
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climbinginchico
Oct 15, 2008, 9:48 PM
Post #47 of 54
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I just tried and can't replicate this problem with my c3's. And, I have pulled the trigger wire out of the lobes on an alien when it caught a stick on approach. Pulled the tiny wire right out of the lobe. theoretically any cam could pull a trigger wire out if you pull too hard. Maybe because the wires aren't looped on the c3 it is a bit more likely but still not definite.
I don't know about others but my c3's have a spring beneath the trigger ensuring that I can't overcam it to the point of breaking. Perhaps this was added later in production?
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scottb
Oct 15, 2008, 10:00 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: climbinginchico wrote: For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems. Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall. Please name another cam that has this issue, and please state that you have placed the perfect cam in every single instance you have ever placed one. I guess the point is that one expects the product to be somewhat idiot proof up to a certain degree. I'm not talking about making a cup of coffee for Starbucks that will never ever burn the customer, but I am saying that Starbucks isn't dumb enough to pour hot coffee into notebook paper and expect the customer to not be burnt by it. There is a middle ground here, and I just can't understand why some people are not worried about this. As far as I know, none of my other cams require me to be perfect like this each time. I shouldn't have to worry every single time I place that cam that the trigger wire may pop if I over cam it. Seriously, who worries about that with any other cam?
Greg, here's why I'm not worried about this:
*If this happens to one of your cams, it will be obvious when it actually happens. This isn't something that requires careful inspection.
*As far as I've been able to tell, this only happens when cleaning the piece. There is no way that I can imagine that the trigger wire would detach in between the time that you place it and the time that you would fall on it.
*If it happens mid-climb and you need the piece again, a two-lobed piece is better than nothing.
* You can fix it yourself.
*I bought my C3s almost as soon as they were available. I have made plenty of less-than-perfect placements that have required aggressive cleaning and this hasn't happened yet. So I feel pretty confident that it's not going to happen with mine. Though I will keep it in mind when I inspect my gear from time to time.
* I may get heat for this one: I trust BD. And I would expect them to do the right thing if their gear was, in fact, dangerous.
Just my take on the issue, everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. I certainly am not going give anyone a hard time for their personal choice in regards to this... also, I'm happy to rethink things if I am missing something huge.
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madrusski
Oct 15, 2008, 10:44 PM
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I have had a similar issue with my Metolius 00. One of the springs came loose and no longer functioned. It was placed on pitch 1 and I only noticed it on pitch 3 or so and decided not to place the unit after that. It was a brand new cam. After playing with the unit for about 15 min at home I managed to put the spring back into place and it behaved ever since (I also bent the spring a little more on the end to ensure a more secure hold).
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